The old days…. Naive question but relevant for moving forward

[Stephen B]

Getting some where

view from the bank today, and maybe some consensus from here is, with respect to our current measuring group… why do we need them except for home made sails, and a process to spot check the output from sail manufacturers.

however turning this vessel around and changing things will not be done over night, but I am prepared to start the process of moving to a new system.

it needs the participation of the sail manufacturers, sail classes that are measured, inc IOM, and the membership…. Before. We even leave this island!

happy to work with a small group of like minded people to see if we can draw up a working proposal and a paper to move us forward.

drop me an email to stephenbrown.47@btinternet.com

 

and let’s see what we might move forward

Stephen 

[Graham Elliott]

2 hours ago, Guzzilazz said:

It's difficult crawling around on the floor measuring 420 sails when you're online...  

Strangely enough Guzz, in 20+yrs of measuring model yacht sails, I have never once had to crawl around the floor to measure a sail, just use your pasting table to place them on and this is why an online course would work just fine, save your knees mate.

[Guzzilazz]

47 minutes ago, Stephen B said:

Getting some where

view from the bank today, and maybe some consensus from here is, with respect to our current measuring group… why do we need them except for home made sails, and a process to spot check the output from sail manufacturers.

however turning this vessel around and changing things will not be done over night, but I am prepared to start the process of moving to a new system.

it needs the participation of the sail manufacturers, sail classes that are measured, inc IOM, and the membership…. Before. We even leave this island!

happy to work with a small group of like minded people to see if we can draw up a working proposal and a paper to move us forward.

drop me an email to stephenbrown.47@btinternet.com

 

and let’s see what we might move forward

Stephen 

Have your read the memorandum of understanding between the MYA &RYA dated August 2022? A huge amount of discussion took place here  before that agreement was made.  MoU

 

[Stephen B]

From one sail maker, as his sails were commented on in a what’s ap group within the club, suggesting that in the States, they had found his sails to be at the extreme limit but legal.

He writes

Stephen,

I truly don't give it much though. (Thought?)

In my opinion all sails including stock should be measured, there would be many surprises. We are talking about  millimeter differences with that in mind it depends on who does the job an most important how it is done.

I know the rule book inside out and Im very comfortable with measuring and technical drawings, done it professional all my life.

From my side I do my best always to assure that sails leaving my table comply with rules.

However I'm only human and if a mistake is found and backed with solid evidence I will be here to make it right.

Like I said above it all depends on the person taking the measurements and his interpretation of the rules.

 

If you have any other questions let me know.

I'm always open to constructive criticism.

Please add me to that debate, sail makers perspective should be also heard.

 

Best regards,

……………….

ps I have two sets of his sails and delighted with them at present 

 

[Mike Ewart]

As a measurer, I o viously measure sails from many different sail makers, very rarely are they out of class especially in the IOM class but I still  measure them to the best of my ability and the commonest error is in the numbering, but I can appreciate that to have sails certified by the manufacturers would not be feasable bearing in mind the relatively small numbers involved the addtional costs involved would make the costs involved in measuring look miniscule, stick with a system that works and is accountable

[John Bennett]

5 hours ago, Mike Ewart said:

As a measurer, I o viously measure sails from many different sail makers, very rarely are they out of class especially in the IOM class but I still  measure them to the best of my ability and the commonest error is in the numbering, but I can appreciate that to have sails certified by the manufacturers would not be feasable bearing in mind the relatively small numbers involved the addtional costs involved would make the costs involved in measuring look miniscule, stick with a system that works and is accountable

DF65 and DF95 sails are made by many manufacturers, who make them within the rules, or they would get a bad reputation and people would stop buying.  I don't believe they bring in a "measurer" and therefore there is no extra cost.  

For that matter, many manufacturers also make IOM sails within the rules currently, and would also get a bad reputation if they were outside the rules. 

Simplify, maybe add "spot checks" at competitions.

 

[John Taylor]

John

During the 2023 (DF95) Globals, each boat was inspected prior to the start of the championship. In numerous cases, sails had to be trimmed to meet the requirements of the rules. 

Some skippers couldn’t use their own boats because they were deemed, not in the condition as supplied by the manufacturer. 
 

Regards

JT

[Mike Ewart]

Trust is a lovely but overated asset. There are always people small numbers maybe who for either the best or worst motives will a use a trust.

Just because a sail is produced by a rsputable sailmaker doesnt meant that an unscrupulous person cant alter it..

Measuring is a nessecary evil, even on our little boats and on full size yachts and their sails

[Stephen B]

The DF one is interesting…

one is about hulls, and this thread was specifically about sails .. and people altering hulls, different issue.

this is about sails, and from what has been said, maybe all sails need to be post production measured.

or maybe just close this thread, delete and we will be doing this in 5 years  time, when I will be looking for something new, but I also hope to have spent some money with sail makers as good sails don’t stay good for ever!

[stevevw]

7 hours ago, John Taylor said:

During the 2023 (DF95) Globals, each boat was inspected prior to the start of the championship. In numerous cases, sails had to be trimmed to meet the requirements of the rules

 

[Damian101]

As the mad one that measured all the boats and sails at the 95 Globals with the help of Mark and Paul - around a quarter of competitors had at least one or more sails fail measurement.
74 competitors, 4 rigs per competitor, 296 rigs, or 592 sails - that was a lot of check measuring!

Some manufacturers are very close to the maximums allowed in varying class rules, so much so that you can quite easily believe in a bit of stretch over time will render them out of class. Something like a marblehead can take up to 4 hours just to measure the sails/rigs if the sails are made very close to the maximums, again you're measuring the whole rig and not just the sails. Having the sails pre-stamped as official wouldn't make any difference as it's the whole rig that needs measuring for the Marblehead class. Same for several other classes.

From experience when measuring a skippers new set of sails, the biggest fault I find is not in the sails themselves, but in how they have not been put on the mast and booms correctly for their measurement bands. Also at this stage as a measurer you take a quick glance over the whole boat and point anything out that has been changed or replaced incorrectly over time.

There's more to measuring than just using a tape measure on the sails.

 

[ericatcse]

At Etherow we have probably 25 unmeasured IOMs ,  members cannot see the relevance of  the current system. We have no measurers currently in Greater Manchester and people are not prepared to travel  due to cost and time issues. All our boats use sails from well known suppliers . As to becoming a measurer, most of our members would not be able to crawl around the floor measuring a dinghy sail those that could are working and/or have family commitments.

In the 40 plus years that I have been involved with our sport I have always had my boats measured  I built a new IOM recently  its not measured I can't see when it will be. 

Are similar requirements in place elsewhere, Europe, Australia ,USA?

[Stephen B]

I wanted to keep this discussion to sails only, but these points above are well expressed. Few people make their own sails, most buy from a reputable sail maker, who badges them with their sail mark.

secondly we have a system in the UK, but is this replicated in other parts of Europe the USA Australia and the rest of the world… I don’t know.

 

[Trevor]

Is it possible to use a template for measuring or are there too many variables?

[Damian101]

Templates - All depends on the class.

As the discussion has centred around the IOM class, I find it easier to use sticks that have tape wrapped around them to show the min and max dimensions, so much easier than using a tape measure or metre rule and you don’t have to keep referring back to figures in the class rules. 

[Trevor]

I had in mind a sheet of Mylar or similar dimensionally stable base with lines on as a go-no go guage. From what you say this seems feasible. Spot checks would be relatively simple with such a device would they not? 

[Stephen B]

Good thinking, and could be way forward to use at regional events ?

[Solent]

sail measurement. - most sails requiring measurement are International Classes. - most are made by reputable sailmakers who are in effect one man bands hand making sails to order.  However competent this is not infallible and mistakes can be made. Hence the need for a second pair of eyes - the official measurer.  

For replacement sails (i.e. ones where the boat has already passed fundamental measurement and there is an existing valid certificate).  It is quite legal and possible for a sailmaker  to have an arrangement with a local official measurer ( with no conflict of interest) to, for an appropriate fee, come and measure and check agreement with existing certificate and sign off sails, before dispatch to customer.  This could solve a lot of the problems.  However for Fundamental Measurement.  (First time new boat)  this does not work as for many classes (i.e 10R & A)  the dimensions of the sails are dependant on many factors relating to the hull  and rig design and construction and can even vary between boats of the same design if fitted with different weight fittings and accessories.  The whole package needs checking by an official measurer at this fundamental stage.

In relation to measurer qualifications. MYA Classes now have online courses available for "Class" measurers.  Although it is usually advisable to have someone new who has passed the on line course to carry out their first measurement with an experienced qualified measurer to ensure they have the practical skills covered as well.  

However before you can become a 'class' measurer you need a sail measurer qualification and the  only one available at present is the RYA one.  Here we have 'catch 22'.  Yes in principal the MYA can run a sailmaker "radio sailing only" course.  However the syllabus needs to be 'approved' by the RYA and they can only approve a course  if it meets World Sailings requirements.  This can happen but not overnight.  It has lots of hurdles to jump over all of which also take time and individuals with the time to chase its progress.  I am sure it will happen but not this year...