KingMax SW22HV Sail Winch

[Eric Finley]

Has anyone tried this winch  https://www.componentshop.co.uk/68g-digital-sail-winch-servo-6-turn-programmable.html . If so any feed back?

Tried the other KingMax SW6114MD with good results in a IOM for a sub £30 winch. Was wondering about using this latest edition to the range in a Marblehead as spec looks good for a sub £50 winch. 

Programmer now available from Component shop so would not have to worry about damaging boat as could happen just using radio endpoints to control winch position/turns.

Thanks Eric

[John Taylor]

Evening Eric

I have consistently used the Kingsmax winch in my IOM, US1m and previous RG for the last 5 years. It is a great little winch, but I would not use the winch in anything bigger than an IOM.

Admittedly, the Kingsmax is not as fast as an RMG, but you as the skipper would learn to manage the speed and timing, when operating the yacht’s sails during a race.

As for the new spec winch, I can’t see me using that in a competitive Marblehead. However, I’m for being educated.

 

JT

Edited April 11, 2022 by John Taylor

[Eric Finley]

John

As stated I have used the Second KingMax I listed in an IOM. I have also used it on a Marblehead which is only fitted with swing rigs. The only issue was my own fault when I left a boat with the power switched on and had not programmed properly and the sheet line was locked so winch continually pulling so eventually burnt out winch. Since then no more issues.

Now the purpose of this Post is that Component Shop have added another KingMax Winch which I had only seen available in the USA. This winch is more powerful and with 7.2v applied gives two turns in less than one second, and only weighs 68g. I was looking for feed back on this new I believe to the UK model.

For my IOM yachts which I sail more regularly, I either use an RMG or one of the Ken Binks suppled monster power arm winches which is very fast.

Eric

[John949]

This appears to be a new 'High Voltage' version of the previous 6114 winch (of which I have two).  It has presumably been produced to cope with the fact that most people are using LiFe / Lipo 2-cells these days.  If you stall a 6V servo (rudder or winch) with a fully charged LiPo / LiFe, then it will probably burn out: as Eric has found out.

I am currently using a 6114 in a 10R without any problems but there are a couple of things worth knowing.  If you use LiPo /Life then I would recommend you install an external BEC (or uBEC) to protect your servos.  It's not as fast as an RMG but fitting the bigger metal drum helps.  Personally I think RMGs are pretty crude and overpriced as well as being very noisy (plastic gears on a brass shaft?), but there aren't many alternatives. 

 

 

[Richard98]

I have also been using King Max 61G winches for quite a few years now. One Metres, Marblehead, "special" 6M, Mini 40 and currently on my "pieces of eight" 10R.

The new version, 68G has more torque, is a bit faster and Waterproof. 

I have done a quick calc using One Metre sheeting length and 6Volts for both. Sheeting times are: 61G 1.71 secs - 68G 1.49 secs. Torque: 14.5 - 17.8 Kg/cm respectively. Each using the new metal drum, 30mm dia, and a great improvement over the old plastic one 25mm dia.  Adds an extra £6 but worth it.

BUT !!!!! £27 now £47 However looks as though the 61G may not be available now.  Still cheap though. 

Richard

[Roger Stollery]

Dear Eric and John,

I found the discussion about King Max winches very interesting as one of the things that we discussed on the way back from the M Worlds in 2018, was how to improve our boats and as we have been using the trusted Jackson winch, which then could not be repaired, I decided to use the basic two turn King Max SW 4805-2 PA winch, which gave the required travel 210 mm for my UP swing rigs and only cost £11 from the Component Shop, just as a trial. The trial was much more than that and lasted over 18 months with complete reliability. As John Taylor mentioned my King Max winch is slow at just over 1.5 seconds, but with practice you can adjust your buoy rounding technique to minimise the slowness.
In the process I redesigned the BOOT to relate to the smaller winch in order to be able to put ALL the weight below the waterline, rounding the base from rectangular to circular to match hull shape as shown in the attached.

As I always use my LAM (Leech Adjustment Mechanism) on my A rig I selected the most basic Futaba T6L TX and RX because it has analogue trims and so I can see/feel exactly where the trim is being adjusted. The trial started in September 2018 and went right through the incredibly windy 2019 season with absolutely no problems at all with regard to reliability. What I like about it is that it cannot overrun, it is always been a problem with my previous winches when something goes wrong.
As it only weighs 45 g, it makes the complete BOOT weigh only 129 g (+65 g mh battery) this definitely achieved an improvement, to which the Hollom/Stollery Winder fin adds the further improvement, which keeps the DIY made UP equal or better than the best.

Cheers, Roger

2018-09-22 BOOT 2 completed.pdf

[Eric Finley]

I have to presume no one on here has tried the KingMax SW22HV. as no feed back.

Roger, going back in time well before the KingMax SW6114MD & SW6109MD winches were available (Using Vigor or Eurgle winches at that time) I tried out the lesser priced KingMax winches both the 45gm and 55gm. (6 turn version generally). Both of these had similar issues, first off they were slow to pull sheets in making gybing or goose winging more difficult and the second problem was as you approached the limit of travel (set on radio end point adjust) they slowed noticeably even more for the last 20mm or so of travel. Both these traits caused issues while racing an IOM. Does this still happen?

I then tried the original Titan Winch (Square Case) which I did like. (Still have this and a round cased Titan which is fitted to one of my Marblehead's.) As I stated earlier I am now either using a RMG or Hitec arm winch in IOM's but looking at weight saving for a Marblehead, hence the request for feed back on the 68gm winch. I do like the SW6119MD but thought the extra spec on the SW22HV could be worth the 7gm penalty. (Other penalty £20 in cost but still less than £50) Extra winch weight would be offset by use of LiFi or LiPo batteries.

The one KingMax I burnt out was as I said in previous post not the winches fault (Only using 6v NiMh) but a setup issue on travel, and then leaving energised for a long time on the bank.

Eric

[John949]

I took an SW6119MD apart the other day and managed to read the chip numbers.  To cut to the chase, the MOSFETS are rated at 20V @ 7Amps so the electronics should be fine on LiPo / LiFe batteries.  The motor might be the weak spot but should be OK as long as you don't stall it.  Presumably they will operate faster and give more torque at higher voltages too.  My guess is that the 'HV' version has a more powerful motor but the same electronics / gearing- hence the weight increase.

[ericatcse]

Hello I sail at Etherow and we have approx 20 IOMs in the club, we have been using  the 61 grm winches for some time now without any problems,. We found that if you get the HITEC drum and drill the centre out then the small drum supplied fits straight into it, we just fasten them together with a couple of screws and file the underneath flat, this then improves the speed considerably and is bigger that the Kingmax alloy drum, We don't often get high winds but we have had no failures  and they're coping well with LIFE batteries controlled through Flysky 6 channel  TX and RX. Last Tuesday we had 16 IOMs sailing and  I would think 12 were using the Kingmax winch and we sailed all day with no battery problems. We have also used the lower turn winches without any problem three of us have just bought the 68 grm winch as there have been supply problems in the past.

 

 

[Eric Finley]

Stephen

When you start using the 68gm winch can you please keep us informed as to how it performs with possibly comparison to the 61gm. As with your club we have members using the 61gm version on IOM's, Marblehead's and even a 10rater. I have personally tried both the KingMax Ali drum or an Eurgle drum to good effect on an IOM and a Marblehead with swing rigs.

I was contemplating fitting the 68gm version into my main Marblehead with a larger drum to increase sheeting speed over the fitted 61gm winch to see how it performs.

Most of my Marblehead's were originally fitted with Whirlwind Winches so the 61gm version was a performance upgrade! At less than £50 I thought the 68gm may be a worthwhile further upgrade. (Too many Marblehead's to contemplate upgrade to RMG winches on all hulls)

Eric   

[Crashard]

I have a brand new KingMax SW22HV which eventually I didn't use when building a new IOM. Open to offers!

 

[cdelatorrejr]

Hello all!  I picked up a Kingmax SW22HV (2T) with programmer.  I will be using in my new IOM build.  I was looking online on instructions how to program the number of turns from 2T  all the way to 7T.  I will be using a 7.4V battery.  Can anyone direct me to instructions online that explains how I can program the number of turns/revolutions?

Also, this is my first IOM build and wondering what your thoughts are on how many turn/revolutions will be needed for my IOM.

Thanks in advance.

Edited September 12, 2022 by cdelatorrejr

[John Ball]

You can estimate the amount of travel required by using pythagoras. This assumes that the main travels from center line to a right angle when the boon hits the shrouds. This gives a close estimation of the amount of travel of the sheeting line.

Use the distance from the gooseneck swivel to the main boom sheeting point as both the base and height.

eg if the length along the boom is 200mm, then the sheeting length is square root of 200 squared times two. This equals 282mm

Now use pi - and measure the dia of your drum. dia times 3.14 divided into 282 give number of revolutions.

John

 

[cdelatorrejr]

@John BallThanks for the info.  This will help me to determine the number of turns.  Now, all I need is how to program this in the Kingmax SW22HV.

[RoRo]

You need a KINGMAX SP01 programmer servo program card. They can be bought cheaply enough. Hopefully that will work for you.

[cdelatorrejr]

@RoRo Thank you, I did purchase the programmer.  According to specs,1500ms is the neutral pulse, the pulse width range is 800-2200ms and one turn is 1000ms-2000ms, how would I configure for 2T, 2.5T, 3T through 7T?  This is where I am stuck.  Below is a screen grab of the programmer software.  I don't know how to configure the settings for the various number of turns.

Edited September 13, 2022 by cdelatorrejr
Added programmer screen grab

[RoRo]

I believe it's the left range right range (might be wrong only worked with futaba before). You might need to play. If in doubt contact component workshop and they will email you a set of instructions which will guide you exactly

[cdelatorrejr]

@RoRoThanks for the tip.  On the instructions to use the software, it did provide a screen grab of configuration for a Graupner sail winch - see below.  The left range is 10 and right is 15.  I’m assuming this is configuration for 5T.

@John Ball Based on the calculation with a winch diameter of 35mm, the number of turns would be 2.5T.  So, I would set the left range to 10 and right to 12.5 for this configuration.

Again, now that I have some idea I will play around with the servo and programmer card.  Thanks all for your advise to get me started.

Edited September 13, 2022 by cdelatorrejr

[John949]

It's a lot easier just to use the transmitter travel adjustment rather than mess about trying to re-program the winch.  In theory re-programming the servo gives greater position resolution but given the deadband necessary to stop the winch oscillating, then I don't think it makes any significant difference.  I know what some of the parameters are and can take a (educated?) guess at some of the others.

Deadband - This is the error between the demanded and actual position that will be ignored i.e. the winch will be assumed to be at it's intended position and the control system will not try to move it any closer.  The smaller the deadband the smaller the error in achieved position, but if you make it too small the winch will keep overshooting the target and oscillate.

Pulse Lower and Upper are the max and min PPM timings that the transmitter uses i.e. in your example, the servo controller is expecting to see a pulse length of 2200mS for full stick travel one way and 800mS for full travel the other way.  These figures should ideally be set to what your particular transmitter uses.  For example Spectrum use 1900 -> 1100.  

Not sure about Range but would expect +64 to +64 to equal full travel i.e. 6 turns and +32 to +32 to be 3 turns.

Neutral lets you offset the mid stick position (but so would having different left and right ranges?)

I would recommend you leave the rest alone.

 

[cdelatorrejr]

All, I received detailed programming instructions, specific to the Kingmax SW22HV winch servo, from one of my “go to” suppliers in the US.  I haven’t tried it yet but it provides the settings for various turns (2T through 7T).  I created the following write up.

Kingmax SW22HV Winch Servo utilizing SP01 Program card

Once programmer connected to servo and PC, complete the following steps:

1. Click "Reflash USB".

2. Click the "Read Config" from the servo. This will pull all settings from servo and populate the configuration. Make sure the Pulse Width (Pulse Lower & Pulse Upper) are correct as specified by model (800ms-2200ms for Kingmax SW22HV).

3. Adjust number of turns/rotations needed:

  1.5T: -51/-49 (left range/right range)

  2T: -46/-45 (left range/right range)

  2.5T: -42/-41 (left range/right range)

  3T: -39/-37 (left range/right range)

  3.5T: -34-33 (left range/right range)

  4T: -30/-30 (left range/right range)

  4.5T: -26/-25 (left range/right range)

  5T: -22/-22 (left range/right range)

  5.5T: -19/-18 (left range/right range)

  6T: -14/-14 (left range/right range)

  6.5T: -11/-10 (left range/right range)

  7T: -6/-6 (left range/right range)

4. Write settings back to servo by clicking "Write Config".

Hopefully this will be helpful for others programming the Kingmax SW22HV winch servo or other similar servos for their specific needs.

[Derek Priestley]

John Ball,   I'm glad I paid attention to my Maths classes at school back in the 1960's!!

But I never expected to see the word "Pythagoras"  or be using his Thorem in this Forum!!!

[John949]

You need quite a bit of school geometry to understand how sails are measured and the Marblehead uses Simpson's Rule, which I think is beyond A level.  When I worked out the real area of a Marblehead sail (as opposed to the 'Certified Area', I used the SIN Rule, Cosine Rule, Heron's Formula and the Area of a Circular Segment.

Quiz question, why is General Relativity a THEORY and Pythagoras a THEOREM.

[Derek Priestley]

Sorry, that's well above my pay grade.  I just go racing!!

[Roy]

When using the Kingmax SW22 HV 6 turn variant and dialled down to say 3 turns in the TX travel limiter does that effect the dead band and resolution. That is to say, does the dead band become relatively wider and the resolution worse?

[John949]

8 minutes ago, Roy said:

When using the Kingmax SW22 HV 6 turn variant and dialled down to say 3 turns in the TX travel limiter does that effect the dead band and resolution. That is to say, does the dead band become relatively wider and the resolution worse?

Yes and No.  If you measure absolute dead band in terms of degrees, then it will stay the same.  If you measure it as a percentage of the total travel then it will increase as the travel reduces.

Your next question is probably going to be:  If the winch is re-programmed to 3 turns, how does this affect the dead band and resolution?  The answer depends upon what then re-programming actually does within the servo. This probably isn't the place for a lecture on control theory so I'll just say that it is theoretically possible to keep the dead band as a constant percentage of the travel i.e. reduce the dead band as the travel reduces but it would be quite complex to do (it would require changing the voltage fed to the pot) so my  best guess is that re-programming the servo would have exactly the same effect as reducing the travel via Tx.

Whilst on the subject of control theory, one of our members has an M with a gizmo and discovered that it was flattening his battery very fast

[John949]

Sorry lent on the send button.

Anyway he had it set up so that there was a small load on the winch when fully sheeted in order to hold some tension on the lever.  Obviously this does mean that the servo is drawing some current but with an old fashioned analogue servo with a simple proportional control algorithm this is not a major problem as the current is small and remains constant over time.  However many of these modern digital servos are a bit cleverer and include an integral term in the control algorithm, which means that they slowly increase the current with time if the servo hasn't achieved its desired position.  Hopefully the servo is designed so that this does no damage but it can mean that the servo is drawing a significant current when fully sheeted in and hence the battery doesn't last as long as you might expect.

I suspect that not all servos will behave like this but it's worth thinking about if you use a gizmo or have your boat set up with the sailwinch under constant load at the end(s) of the travel.

[ianrmcdonald]

As someone planning to join the IOM fleet this is really good news. Having an option on the winch reduces the price but more importantly protects against the class being very restricted if the ( almost sole) winch supplier stopped production for any reason

[Roy]

The SW22HV comes with the small Futaba plug which one would normally use to connect to a receiver

Are you happy to feed the power to this winch through the receiver?

[SineWave]

Hi,

I recently purchased a KingMax SW22HV sail winch and like others, found it difficult to program.   After eventually getting things working, I decided to put up some info about the process on github. Tested on Windows 7

https://github.com/kwikius/KingMaxServoProgrammer

Please feel free to add info, make comments etc. Overall the SW22HV seems to be a very versatile and capable winch servo. Just let down by the software!

regards

Andy

[John Arundell]

I have purchased a SW22HV and the Digital programmer and reprogrammed to my IOM settings successfully (3 1/4 turns in my case).

I have a question: I have also bought a big brother (to the 22HV): a Kingmax SW02CS 77g which is on factory setting of 7 turns. I want to reprogram to about 5 turns for my RM but the Programmer does not want to know. Has anybody tried to reprogram this winch, if so how did you do it.

Component shop supplied the Programmer and say that it should work on all Kingmax programmable winches not just the SW02CS.

HMMMM................