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I understand that it is possible to buy IOM sails from abroad, which come already signed.

Can I put them on my IOM and not need to have them measured? 

 

If so, will this go some way to solving the measurement problem?

 

Derek Priestley

Fleetwood club member.

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2 hours ago, Derek Priestley said:

I understand that it is possible to buy IOM sails from abroad, which come already signed.

Can I put them on my IOM and not need to have them measured? 

 

If so, will this go some way to solving the measurement problem?

 

Derek Priestley

Fleetwood club member.

Hi Derek,

A question that could throw up a load of possible answers, or further problems.

Could I re join the ARYA, continue as a measurer there and sign off on others equipment here in the UK, without the need for being an MYA measurer? A big can of worms that. 

I would imagine anything self certified abroad would still need to go through a process of allowance by MYA tech team or higher before simply being allowed to just race on. No doubt those that bemoan any kind of cost being charged on anything will kick off at that measured suit of sails costing more to them.

Would it not be better to fix a system that has been unnecessarily sorted with a sledge hammer as opposed to tweaking what was largely not broken? That way you could support and promote the efforts of all of those UK suppliers who sponsor your events when asked and give no end of help and advice to skippers at the pond side and more, most often without needing to be asked.
 

Brad

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Hi Brad,

 

Thanks for your answer.

 

I'm not sure if the sails are "self certified"  I was just told that they are signed.   And I fully support, and am grateful for the kind help given to us from all our domestic suppliers.

I was just asking a question......................

 

D

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No worries Derek

I would think if a manufacturer offers a measured item service that it may be considered self certified in some way? Another can of worms probably.

I know you are a supporter of domestic suppliers which is why your question caught my eye. I think if circumventing is the only solution then we’ve got something wrong😉

Brad

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Hi Brad and Derek,

This is a great question and it applies to any country. I think the answer for IOM is in the IOM Class Rules. It would be valid if the MNA granted a certificate, otherwise, NO, must be measured by an MNA appointed measurer.

John

 

G.2.2 CERTIFICATION
(a) Except where sails are certified as in (b) the official measurer shall certify
sails in the tack and shall date each with the date of certification control.
(b) An MNA may appoint one or more persons at a sailmaker to certify sails
produced by that manufacturer. A special licence shall be awarded for that
purpose.
International One Metre Class Rules 202
 

John Ball

IOM CAN 307 (V8)

In my private capacity

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Just about all full sized boat sailmakers certify their own sails.  I imagine there is a cost in this licence but wouldn't this be better than requiring experienced and committed class members to attend RYA sail measuring courses?

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Possibly Ian, but aren’t those measurers the same ones that are available to measure our boats? We had a good number of measurers that could have done with a slight refresher course over time, carried out at events, MYA AGM weekends or other times when together by the MYA TC or District TCs. Why someone thought a full RYA sail measurement course had more than 10 minutes of relevance to what we do is beyond me. No other Radio Sailing or National body insists on this, having an agreement with their Yachting Authority to take care of their own business in house.

Self certification does not solve the problem if we look at a number competitive full size classes that were left to commercial suppliers to ‘do the right thing’. Take a look at the laser now ILCA class, the Etchell class, the J24 just for starters at the rule bending and breaking that goes on. The ability to have gear measured keeps everyone more in check than we think.

cheers

Brad

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I am not sure how the 'licensing' system works for sailmakers to self certify in other countries.  However having trained as a quality systems auditor I can say that this usually requires the company concerned to meet quality systems such as those in ISO 9000.  These involve a chain of checks and records of such and demonstration of consistent repeatable accuracy.  This can work for production system manufacture but is extremely difficult for made to order hand made sails.   I believe in the UK for those accredited 'big sail' measurers the RYA as the licensing authority, requires an appointed accredited OM to be part of the companies validation of measurement team.  The system costs money both to set up and maintain and to pay the licensing authority for assessment at the beginning and regular audits to check continued compliance.  Generally UK sailmakers of radio sails just are not big enough or organised in a way that makes it economic to be licensed.  These costs are reflected in the price of the sails.

 

In relation to Brad's suggestion of rejoining the AYRU I believe he will find that a 'foreign' OM needs to be authorised by the National Member Authority to operate and 'legally' measure in another country or another countries boats in his own country.  This applies to big boats as well.  It causes angst in Europe where I know an Italian owner has a 200K round trip to his OM whereas his nearest accredited OM is only 20K away but in Switzerland!

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As many will be aware I own a Falmouth based sail loft.

Ten years ago, we were a IHC loft (In House certified).

Having been through that process perhaps my comments might further enlighten those that are interested.

What is involved, you need to be trained as a RYA Sail measurer or undergo a AA or MNA course depending on where you are based.

Undergo IOM (Internal Official Measurer Training)

Partake in Audits of sytems in place ensuring that data is kept on file for ten years, these Audits vary between every three and twelve months.

Costs, the last Audit we participated in cost in the region of £1000 by the time costs of travel and accomodation had been factered in.

Obviously whether you run a full size sail loft or a radio sailing loft costs are costs.

These costs get absorbed into the business which then reflect the end price of goods.

Do i believe the costs of IHC could be absorbed for a radio sailing sail loft?

Quite simply no, I believe the cost of that service would not be efficient to suppliers or cost effective to the end consumer.

To my knowledge there are no IHC based radio sailing lofts or suppliers.

The list of the current IHC lofts worldwide can be found https://www.sailing.org/classesandequipment/ihc/ihc-who-is-involved.php

Having checked the IRSA website there is no mention of any IHC sail lofts for radio sailing.

Therefore anyone buying sails from overseas and paying for measurement should do so with caution.

Lets say a French radio sailing sailmaker can get his sails measured in France by an appointed sail measurer, that sail would not be officially measured in the UK as that measurer has not been appointed by the certificating DNM (IRSA Member) or MNA (WS Member National Authority).

On a seperate note with regards to measurers, issues have been ongoing for far too long..............

The approach that MYA affiliated measurers need to undergo a RYA sail measurement course is simply not fit for purpose, as an example the MYA sail measuring course will not teach you how to measure sails on a rig. I understand our TO still has not undertaken the course yet himself and perhaps it would of been prudent for him to have taken the course to understand the shortfalls prior to pushing it on to 100 MYA measurers?

As Brad mentioned in an earlier post, "Would it not be better to fix a system that has been unnecessarily sorted with a sledge hammer as opposed to tweaking what was largely not broken?

 

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I'd be surprised if this is the case for an international class. A measurer is a measurer at the end of the day - surely if they're approved by the class in a country it doesn't matter where the sails end up.

5 hours ago, Gavin Watson said:

 

Lets say a French radio sailing sailmaker can get his sails measured in France by an appointed sail measurer, that sail would not be officially measured in the UK as that measurer has not been appointed by the certificating DNM (IRSA Member) or MNA (WS Member National Authority).

 

 

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Just a thought.

Who would be responsible for having all the measuring equipment calibrated?

Will the MYA have a budget set aside to each and every measurer in order to have their equipment calibrated?

This should be done yearly. By a calibration company. Certified. Dated. Signed off. Date of next calibration too.

Or will they have to do this themselves? At their cost?

I wonder how big the que will be for that!

Because if a sail is 1 micron too big, (about a thousandth of a human hair) it is not legal.

What will the tolerances be? plus or minus a millimeter?

I could perhaps understand if we were flying comercial aircraft. But radio controlled yachts?

Stupid.

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My personal view is that our whole measurement process could be simplified.  At the moment every boat and its rigs are subject to quite a detailed measurement procedure which takes time and effort even before you add in the current hiatus concerning measurer's qualifications.  All that tells you is that that boat and that rig measured on that day, it does not tell you that they will remain within the class rules for ever more.  For example, boats tend to gain weight as they age and for a 10R this can easily put it over its original waterline length.  There is also the issue of deliberate cheating - it's pretty easy to put new panel(s) in a sail while retaining the panel with the stamp and the signature.  I'm not saying that such practices occur, I'm just trying to point out that, for a major championship, you can't rely on the original measurement and you have to conduct sample tests at least or possibly even completely re-measure the first few boats  (like post race scrutineering in motor racing).  Given that you need do this testing anyway, then do we need to measure every boat and every sail to the same degree if it is only going to be used for club racing?

An alternative way forward might be to conduct a few simple checks on the hull and allow sails to be self certified by the maker (including home made sails) and then issue a certificate on this basis.  If we kept the basic tests simple enough (e.g. use templates rather than rulers) then the training requirements for 'basic measurers' would be pretty low and a few more people might be willing to undergo it.  Spot checks and sample measurements would then be carried out at major events by 'fully certified' measurers. Hopefully it would be self-policing as anyone getting repeatedly disqualified from major events would have some explaining to do to their customers and/or be obvious candidates for 'random' testing.

This idea would need a bit of tweaking for each class e.g. classes with variable sail dimensions would probably need the sail maker to provides a 'certificate' with the actual dimensions and area on it to allow easy spot checking. 10R waterline measurement is always going to be tricky but I don't think anyone could claim that you need to go on an RYA sail measuring course to do it!

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Measurement, its requirement, process and protocols are a large and sometimes subjective topic with many differing opinions. Probably very difficult to discuss within an online forum, but to get back to the OP I think the question relates to what currently happens to a boat that is registered in a country that differs from that of its initial (fundamental) measurement. Does a 2nd hand boat that is imported need to be re measured, or, is it just re registered as would happen for a change of ownership? If the later then the logic to me would be that a measured sail signed by an IRSA member country would be ok.

Regarding signed sails I wonder why more suppliers do not provide a service to get these signed by a measurer as part of the purchase price? I am not involved with the process so dont understand the hassle that this brings but I would have thought that a bolt on service would be welcomed and those wishing to use it would pay a premium for the service.

Darin

 

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Darin, I read the OP concerning sails purchased and measured as new. I think John B and Janice (Solent) covered the issue well here. I believe the only way for this to happen from a supplier from another region, for a specific class would be to become a registered certificated supplier. I believe both Gavin and Janice covered in detail why this is very unlikely to happen within what we do.

As for a Supplier offering sails within their own country or allowable region, I think a point is being missed here. Firstly, does every manufacturer have a measurer on call? Do they live 5 minutes or an hour away? Some may pay a premium but I could also suggest many would not bother. If the manufacturer is offering the service and taking money for it without being recognised as officially as an accredited class supplier of measured goods, are they contravening any laws or rules? I’m not so sure pushing this route solves the problem.

As you are aware, there are a shortage of measurers in some areas for various reasons, one real one being that a number have walked through the current approach. That it has reached the stage of say a Midlands District skipper having to source a measurer in the SW District or one from the Northern Districts is really quite sad. Maybe some Districts and Clubs could pull their weight a little by encouraging a member to become a measurer? That way when a skipper goes to his or her club for a sail, their new sails can be readily measured without anyone being ‘put out’ as opposed to relying on the few to carry the load for all.

I’m yet to understand how adding hurdles and expense for anyone wishing to become a measurer solves the shortfall problem. A problem that largely didn’t exist previous.

cheers

Edited by Brad Gibson
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Derek has asked an interesting question.

I am aware of this being discussed at the highest levels on many occasions, with cost ruling it out for model sails, as Gavin confirms.

My experience of measuring sails for 55 years is that there is always the occasion when even an expert sail maker makes mistakes; he is human and owners DO NEED A MEASURER to ensure that the sails comply.

We need a supply of measurers and the MYA are not encouraging this.

Thank you Brad for making the point that, for the whole of MYA’s 110 years existence, clubs have had adequate traditional procedures for measurement, which do not need fixing.

Measuring is not rocket science and any constructive person, who makes anything, uses a measuring device without a problem and without lengthy training sessions.

Many of the good ideas for helping measurers have been purposely stripped off the MYA website by the current regime and this is very sad.

History created by the combined efforts of a hard-working Tech Team does not need to be rewritten by a single mind able to operate without any technical check.

MYA Council needs to be more concerned about membership needs and less about the RYA, who don’t care about radio sailing; only taking our money.

And what about publicity, not even mentioned as a vacant post in the latest Yearbook; it is a disgrace.

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This as can be seen from the posts is an emotive issue, to cover a couple of what I consider useful points, yes we do need to ensure our measuring devices are accurate, this is relatively simple, use certified weights to check your scales, use grade 1 quality measuring devices that are marked as such, they do cost a little more than your standard rule but its only around 10% extra. and as far as our most popular class the IOM any measurer can quite easily make themselves a pair of measuring sticks as described in by our TO some time ago, which makes check measuring easier at an event.

On a longer term basis the rules by which we measure our sails could be simplified and check measurement made much easier by our sailmakers marking two cardinal points on each sail the half height and quarter height these can then be checked easily at an event, without requiring derigging etc.

I definitely agree that the MYA should be able to set the standards for its measurers without reference to the RYA, but the RYA also has some good materiel about measuring that should be required reading for measurers.

 

Mike Ewart

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In "defence" of the RYA a requirement for training and qualification in many areas seems to be normal from many National sport and hobby organisations. Is it to protect against our litigation mad society?

Although the chance of the " pupil" having much more experience and knowledge than the instructor is more than strange 

 

 

 

Edited by ianrmcdonald
Missed clarification
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  • 1 month later...

I have just received my email from Graham Bantock (MYA tech secretary) regarding the need to participate on the RYA sail measurement course.

Few questions.

1. Is this now a classroom course? I thought we were looking into an online course dedicated to model yachts?

2. If any current measures do not participate on the course, what time restraint is there before they are excluded from being a measure?

3. The course is just a sail measurement course and does not include hull measurement?

4. What financial package does the measurer receive for participation on the classroom course?

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I think we need to be the masters of our own fate , the RYA is not the MYA they have very little interest in us and the additional expense that is involved in the original RYA requirements is an additional load on our membership, all our measurers being individual members of the RYA on top of the course expense we will have the yearly membership expenses, and as mentioned by Graham Elliot the sail measurement is the easy bit what about hull measurement are the RYA going to invent another course for that and force us to go on it?

 

Mike Ewart

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I for one am getting worried that there will not be anyone left to measure my boats locally once the measurers must go on the RYA sail measuring course.

Best case will be a 270 mile round trip, upwards of £40 for Fuel alone and probably a day off from work to have a toy boat measured. Whereas now I can have a very pleasant morning a few miles away from home possibly on a weekend with very experienced and knowledgeable measurers that will shortly not be allowed to measure my boats because they do not want to go on a course to measure full size sails.

I have 4 boats in my workshop being built which will possibly need 4 trips to the measure and at least 3 of them 2 x 6m 1 x A will need to return to have the sails measured once constructed from the data on the measurement spreadsheet. I doubt I will bother getting them certified how can I justify losing 7 days’ pay or holiday and around £400 in fuel costs.

So, I will probably revert to club sailing only with the old boats that are certificated and sailing the new boats on non-championship/non-series days only.

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The sails are the easy bit to measure - an online course that any one can participate in would be ideal. No need to travel up and down the country. Shouldn't this file act as a reference manual within the MYA members area.

Regarding hull measurement - This should be handed over to the COGS to create their own "How to, and Q&A regarding best practice measurement procedures". This document then OK'ed by the MYA.

People who wish to measure certain classes are appointed by the COGS, as they will be following the COGS above document. Once they have shown competence to the COG that they can measure that specific class of boat, their name will be passed to the class registrar (who is part of the COG) to accept forms from the new measurer.

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I think an update on the current thinking/position would be very useful so that we can all see the direction of travel, even if we appear to be going slowly it would be beneficial to the members to know the destination.

I understood that online was the route for non displacement classes?

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I am presuming, RYA measurers have to be affiliated to the RYA?

No idea of this cost but I also presume this will be an annual payment?

Does the MYA pay this cost or is it down to each measurer to pay this then have the embarrassment of charging to measure each boat?

Can someone on council at least have the courtesy to respond please, at this rate we will be lucky to have a dozen measurers in operation throughout the country once the deadline kicks in.

 

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Cheers Larry, £47 per annum sounds quite high for an individual volunteer measurer to pay to measure somebody else's sails. Costs me nothing at the moment and never charged a penny, though Jen Hand did kindly donate me some Guinness last year for measuring a suit of IOMsails which was gratefully accepted and drunk.

Think I may give this one a miss and just measure away until the deadline is reached and I can no longer measure without a licence.

Edited by Graham Elliott
A
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The RYA is getting increasingly bureaucratic and setting hoops higher and higher... So a 1 day Diesel course requires a fully qualified Yachtmaster to teach it....

Larry

IOM sailor

North Essex

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the costs to the measurer or the MYA are mounting up and if you read the latest IOM rules there is a get out clause or so it seems to absolve measurers from all responsability, so why bother might be said, I am very much in agreement with Graham E about the situation unless it gets sorted out properly

Mike Ewart

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