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Brad Gibson

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Brad Gibson last won the day on November 25 2021

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  1. I think the point has been made clearly and near all are in agreement that enforcing RYA accreditation through a sail mesurement course largely not fit for our purpose is illogical. Our MYA through its TO we hope would be looking at ways to set an understanding/agreement with the RYA that allows our measurers to continue as they have for many years (and others do abroad) be certified measurers of international classes. Damian hit the nail on the head in that COGs are the ones that can set any specific refresher courses or training of measurers if needed to suit the needs of their own specific class. What we have at present is a very good group of measurers largely happy to give their time freely. I have no doubt that any measurer would welcome updates on measurement practice and procedure within any class group. All of the above is practical and achievable. Talk of wide sweeping changes, the need of mass volunteers to run seminars and coaching weekends or similar totally miss the point of where the sport and its membership are at. COGs through a head class measurement officer and the class registrar will have few problems in keeping measurers working smoothly if they are prepared to work with them as opposed to chastising or belittling them. A very small minority making noise and suggestions that the current state of mesurement needs an overhaul reflects more on inabilities of that minority to work well within a class, not the wider sport. Given the low levels of support and present state of the classes linked to this I would suggest a reset on what actually is important within the sport is required by some. Measurement overhauls and seminars for a sub 10 boat event entry is not a priority. Big picture!
  2. At no point was it suggested that 30 minutes would be suffice to train a new measurer. Let’s not lose the plot here or twist and exaggerate shall we. It was though suggested or intended that regular refresher courses or updates could be held quickly to discuss certain topics at an open meeting type event. You could be surprised how short sharp education and interaction with skippers, owners and measurers could benefit rule adherence going forward, without having to look down and label OMs with less than kind terms for not meeting ‘holy’ standards. As for getting volunteers, first it could be worth looking as to why the sport struggles to keep those that do step forward. People will step forward and have done so. Why did they walk and why have others lost the will to bother? Worth finding the answers I’d say. And while looking for people to step forward, we actively look to disparage and remove existing volunteer OMs? I could put a safe bet on though that few would look to volunteer given the current climate. Which all brings us back to the crux and this sudden insistence on RYA accreditation to become a full measurer. Now as you are so keen to point out the need for this, I fear the MYA will be on the front foot making a pariah of themselves at the next International event in claiming near all other Nationalities boats are non compliant? No doubt this will be done in the good old spirit of ‘getting people sailing’ but I can assure you I know of one large DNM who would shut its doors over offering one cent to its National Sailing body that has caused no end of grief to it through multiple attempts of money grabbing over the years. To close, Janice I have to say that as an assistant to the 10R class Registrar if the role is causing you considerable grief for what must be less than 10 registrations a year, then this may well be a class related problem and not that of a very wide and hard working group of measurers and registrars across the country. You would think a pretty easy class to get on top of rules wise at less than one registration a month. I’m not aware of other classes demanding such overhauls in the measurement and certification processes, but it would not be the first time wide reaching changes were bought in by individuals demanding fictional problems needed fixing. All in the name of getting people sailing of course…
  3. And this all came about recently by which people rattling which cage exactly? There is not another NCA or DM of the IRSA that require any class measurer to be an approved measurer of their relevant local World Sailing/RYA equivalent. Was this a push instigated by our MYA for whatever reasons can only be known to those involved knowing the burdens associated, or was this a case of our RYA looking at/for a cash cow? Surely, as the MYA is the granted Authority by the RYA of Radio Sailing within this country, that enables it to ratify its own measurer certification. For instance when someone seeks a specific accreditation within the RYA do they then need to seek a higher equivalent with World Sailing above to validate such, or is an RYA accreditation as GBRs WS delegate here accepted? For whatever reason, I suspect those in play have rattled a cage we can now not return from. If so, those should be held to account. So you are saying District Technical Officers no longer exist? OK, I was not aware of that Absolute rubbish. If a class or group of people are genuinely keen to hold a chat for any reason they will find the time. If you can find time to drink all night at socials, you can spare 30mins on one night to listen to a few updates or take in a quick refresher. A volunteer? That could be a present TO, a registrar, an active class TO or a measurer. An active class group would make such happen. Tired class groups will find excuses. It might be worth dropping back a notch to remember measurers are human and mistakes can occur. They can occur at all levels. I make mistakes in manufacture, I know measurers who have made mistakes including myself. I also know of registrars and other areas where mistakes are made. Calling such out as incompetence is not appropriate and possibly gives some background to your message tone/claims and that of what the MYA is pushing. I have not seen or know of the level of issues you seem to think are prevailing. That those you mention were sorted and no doubt learnt from, then I don’t see what there is to get worked up about unless the problems are reoccurring. If so then surely measurers are updated by the TO or class TO and we move on? I think we might be getting a little carried away here as this is not a common thread through the wider classes as the doom and gloom you suggest. Sure, life does move on for some as they age and step back from offering their services to the sport. Can I suggest that calling out hard working time offering measurers as lazy, having bad habits that may have missed or ignored blah blah is unfair. If this is the mindset of above officialdom(or their helpers) then there is no wonder certain classes struggle through an unwelcome and disrespecting tone regularly used, and those same officials should not be surprised when that same tone is replied with. This is meant to be a fun pastime. Worth remembering when all some can think about is rules and regulations over getting as many boats on the water and enjoying some sailing. As mentioned above, any shortfalls or tweaks to our present system can be sorted. No doubt the right agreement can be made with the RYA to deliver a realistic set of regulations that cover our measurers accreditations over the farce that is being pushed. If not, let’s continue arguing about rules, regulations, constitutions and all the other rubbish that is dragging our open classes down the tubes while those allowed to do their own thing and free of this kind of rubbish dance along happily. Again, big picture anyone? Anyone want to stop and realise why so few can be bothered to turn up to events, why people have walked away or why people don’t even bother to join the debate anymore? Yes, let’s keep on about measurement of boats that struggle to get 8 boats to a ranking event, that will solve things Brad
  4. Or….we could look openly at solutions that would not have cleared the decks of current measurers and worked with them if any ‘refreshment’ was needed to stay up to speed with their relevant classes. Before that though, would it have been smart to identify any actual problems, identify classes with such and act? I believe within the MYA Technical Office role that there are then Technical Officers within each district that report back to the TO? If so then how hard is it to identify any anomalies within the measurement and certification process? For example, an owner a district has their boat measured by a club measurer. Papers are stamped and sent on to the class registrar. The class registrar in ratifying the paperwork and checking that all is in order comes across an error. Now this could be a simple mistake, an oversight, lack of knowledge, training or whatever on the part of the measurer. Our friendly registrars job is not to determine the issue, but help the often new skipper in a friendly way that will rectify or refer the matter to the relevant district Technical Officer. Any issues can be sorted to help all parties and we learn and move on. Is this too simple? Now can we look at what sort of problem currently exist or if there are any? If there are problems, surely these will be seen at event check in. I can only comment on the classes I race but can not believe such an overhaul is warranted in measurement training or practice given the level of compliance at events I have been to. At our UK IOM National events we often put our boats on the scales and a check of certificates are made. At Marblehead events our boats go in a length jig for some reason that I am yet to understand and certificates are checked. Ten Rater events have certificates checked. We trust that certificates issued have been done so correctly through the above process linking owner/measurer and registrar. Now at all of these events, I can not remember an instance of non compliance here that could not be seen as a simple oversight or error that could not be sorted at the pond side before racing commenced. Such oversights are often down to the skipper who’s obligation it is to keep any measured boat or equipment in rule compliance and not the fault of the above measurement/certification process. Now to add to the above I can only remember 2 instances in over a dozen International events were some correction was needed to adjust a boats measurement to become legal. In one instance this was a simple owner oversight easily corrected and the other, a misunderstanding of a class rule change by both the measurer and subsequently missed by the registrar. In both instances there was no attempt to flout the rules, just simple errors easily corrected and learnt from. Yes the odd sail number may need washing and a changing of position or size at an event and yes a gentle word or explanation can help a new skipper understand how a bundle of lower rigs need to fit within a measured certificate. An IOM skipper can need reminding that only one A rig can be used at an event and so on. But these are not fundamental measurement problems and are easily resolved through simple education. Class groups can do this. I just can’t understand the push to upend a system that largely works well and has served the hobby/sport here for so long. There are so many more areas at events that can be better policed if the intention of this overhaul is to somehow address rule compliance. We don’t over police at events as the time taken would see little time left to race so we trust the owners declaration and certification. The current situation is not broken. Refresher courses at open events would be a simple way of bringing owners and measurers up to speed. No great seminars needed. District TOs can also assist at district event through education. There can always be room for improvement but what is proposed is not that…
  5. Can someone explain to me the value of a Ten Rater Class measurer having to sit through an RYA instructed sail course? Ten Rater sails are measured on a grid and spreadsheet with zero relevance to practices within the equipment rules of sailing for sail measurement. Now can I ask what full size RYA Classes allow within class rules to measure the sails whilst attached to a spar? Sure some classes do have spar measurement points(black bands) that a set sail shall fall within, but none I know of are measured set on the spar. Both the IOM and International Marblehead classes allow sails to be measured on a spar. Accurately finding and marking sail girth points requires a skill and knowledge set that will not be taught from an RYA course other than a traditional way not relevant to the class rule set. To go further, battens and how they are defined within any IOM sail are an override of an ERS system, with further irrelevance to measurement training. Our training for measurers should be done in house, with accurate training relevant to each particular class, with any MYA monies spent kept within our sport to cover such. This insistence on measurers having to be retrained by the RYA on sail measurement, at an increased cost to the measurer payable each year is crazy useless added expense. And for what? A very small percentage of the MYA membership who could really care… Maybe important issues such as promotion of classes and events as a start would be more beneficial to the sports health over erecting unnecessary hurdles for a minority, but felt by the majority. Big picture anyone? Brad
  6. Hi Ian, I would be reluctant to go with anything that a decent epoxy would not seal properly over as a half fix. Best also not to go in through the fin case but to fix internally which can be tricky dependent on access, but will be a better long term option. You identified the approximate height of the split or pin hole. To only take a couple of minutes to drain that far, it is not a tiny hole, but certainly not a significant split. Easily fixed. Repeat the process of filling the fin case with water with hull upturned and tape over the bolt hole. Where the water level finishes is the level of the pin hole. Try to mark or make a reference of this height/depth. now tilt and set the boat up from one end as high as possible so that remaining water doesn’t leak out over the hull. Does the water level continue to leak into the hull? If so, let the water to drain until finished. If not, repeat and tilt boat from other end. This will better locate the point of leak. once better located, mix a thickened epoxy glue mix and use a stick, or even gloved finger to smear over the identified area on the inside of the hull. once dried, repeat the water filling process to see if fixed and if not, go at it again. if you can get to the inside of the hull easily, a scuff with some paper and a clean with meths or similar before applying glue will help it bond better. I hope this helps as there is no reason for a leaky boat Cheers Brad
  7. Hi Neil, If you want to drop me an email I can sort you with our file. Cheers Brad
  8. Darin, I read the OP concerning sails purchased and measured as new. I think John B and Janice (Solent) covered the issue well here. I believe the only way for this to happen from a supplier from another region, for a specific class would be to become a registered certificated supplier. I believe both Gavin and Janice covered in detail why this is very unlikely to happen within what we do. As for a Supplier offering sails within their own country or allowable region, I think a point is being missed here. Firstly, does every manufacturer have a measurer on call? Do they live 5 minutes or an hour away? Some may pay a premium but I could also suggest many would not bother. If the manufacturer is offering the service and taking money for it without being recognised as officially as an accredited class supplier of measured goods, are they contravening any laws or rules? I’m not so sure pushing this route solves the problem. As you are aware, there are a shortage of measurers in some areas for various reasons, one real one being that a number have walked through the current approach. That it has reached the stage of say a Midlands District skipper having to source a measurer in the SW District or one from the Northern Districts is really quite sad. Maybe some Districts and Clubs could pull their weight a little by encouraging a member to become a measurer? That way when a skipper goes to his or her club for a sail, their new sails can be readily measured without anyone being ‘put out’ as opposed to relying on the few to carry the load for all. I’m yet to understand how adding hurdles and expense for anyone wishing to become a measurer solves the shortfall problem. A problem that largely didn’t exist previous. cheers
  9. Possibly Ian, but aren’t those measurers the same ones that are available to measure our boats? We had a good number of measurers that could have done with a slight refresher course over time, carried out at events, MYA AGM weekends or other times when together by the MYA TC or District TCs. Why someone thought a full RYA sail measurement course had more than 10 minutes of relevance to what we do is beyond me. No other Radio Sailing or National body insists on this, having an agreement with their Yachting Authority to take care of their own business in house. Self certification does not solve the problem if we look at a number competitive full size classes that were left to commercial suppliers to ‘do the right thing’. Take a look at the laser now ILCA class, the Etchell class, the J24 just for starters at the rule bending and breaking that goes on. The ability to have gear measured keeps everyone more in check than we think. cheers Brad
  10. No worries Derek I would think if a manufacturer offers a measured item service that it may be considered self certified in some way? Another can of worms probably. I know you are a supporter of domestic suppliers which is why your question caught my eye. I think if circumventing is the only solution then we’ve got something wrong Brad
  11. Hi Derek, A question that could throw up a load of possible answers, or further problems. Could I re join the ARYA, continue as a measurer there and sign off on others equipment here in the UK, without the need for being an MYA measurer? A big can of worms that. I would imagine anything self certified abroad would still need to go through a process of allowance by MYA tech team or higher before simply being allowed to just race on. No doubt those that bemoan any kind of cost being charged on anything will kick off at that measured suit of sails costing more to them. Would it not be better to fix a system that has been unnecessarily sorted with a sledge hammer as opposed to tweaking what was largely not broken? That way you could support and promote the efforts of all of those UK suppliers who sponsor your events when asked and give no end of help and advice to skippers at the pond side and more, most often without needing to be asked. Brad
  12. Hi John, I'm afraid things are probably a little lost in translation. I appreciate your picture and drawing as accurate. My point that i'm trying to get across is that in looking at the underside of the water surface, you can quite accurately see where it bisects the hull at point C on your above drawing. I ignore what is happening at point A & B (the meniscus). The mirror is held at an angle and you are sighting the under surface of the waterline to get a bisection, not holding the mirror up under the hull to see where the meniscus ends. Brad
  13. Hi Darin, the amount of the leech of say a mainsail would be so small not to make any difference, if boats were the same weight. Now if the waterline is changed through a weight change, then that difference multiplies. I.e lighter boat with a bit of extra sail vs a heavier boat with less sail. The larger the change, the larger the multiplication difference. As mentioned I’m happy to factor in a safety value from my actual waterline, making my boats 4-5mm longer for measurement than they actually are in the tank. The loss of that slither of sail is far less important than getting the whole project right I think. Remember it is only the largest measured sail for light airs that will have that slither off it that the lower ones need to fit inside of on the grid. Brad
  14. A good point Derek, very similar in the effort it takes to chase after a Vane boat under spinnaker down the full length of Fleetwood or Gosport lake. Numbers were reduced in those disciplines a few years back but what we see now with good promotion and energy, is the Vane classes coming back to life with younger generations. People have the boats and want to use them again. People coming back enthused, who would have thought… The 10R sits as the fastest and most modern in design of the International classes. The attractiveness of the rule to anyone thinking they are a designer is obvious for a real test. Yet the class is again floundering. If newer skippers have not been attracted to it like they have in other countries like France, Italy and Australia, then that falls on calendar and it’s promotion. If current owners are not coming out to race there is a problem. A poor calendar is hard to promote or sell someone on. Sort the calendar, then tell the world. Tell them regularly, make anyone not there feel like they are missing out. It goes the same for any class as the re growth in the Ms, IOMs and 6M classes have shown. Like in other countries we could then have our MYA be positive in supporting all of its classes as an avenue into the sport, through buying used boats instead of pushing the one avenue of entry. There is a 10R ranking this weekend. How many know about it? Who would want travel for 1 day at this time of year? Sorry Richard for the hijack and happy if this gets moved elsewhere. Brad
  15. John, The method I use with a mirror sighting through the undersurface of the water to where it bisects the hull, ignoring the meniscus. I am fully aware if taking a visual waterline marking from above the surface of how much the meniscus would add, hence the mirror method sighting below. It is accurate as any complicated system, as has been shown repeatedly when my designs have been checked with other elaborate ‘tank methods’. No need to overcomplicate things. On swing rigs the jib area issue in getting lower rig suitable sizes can be solved with an off set pivot rig as Roger has shown and Richard mentioned on the measured rig. It can be done, but not a direction I would favour…
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