Good morning, some healthy discussion in our club regarding this, please see pic, which is the correct line A,B or C, or something else, I have had a couple of different responses within our club, so it would be good if someone can point me to "the Rule" 

 

Thanks 

 

Andy HRYC

At the Iom start line on Sunday, in the midlands, the start line judge had a piece of cardboard he held up to sight along the line to cut the line and on the open side see the boats over

 

should have asked him which line…

2 hours ago, Andrew Start said:

Good morning, some healthy discussion in our club regarding this, please see pic, which is the correct line A,B or C, or something else, I have had a couple of different responses within our club, so it would be good if someone can point me to "the Rule" 

 

Thanks 

 

Andy HRYC

Believe it will be B for the start and C for the finish,ie course side of the mark.

I have found this in the appendix, but I'm not sure how to interpret it 

E2.6 Starting Races

(a) Rule 26 is changed to: Races shall be started using warning, preparatory and starting signals at one minute intervals. During the minute before the starting signal, additional sound or oral signals shall be made at ten second intervals, and during the final ten seconds at one second intervals. Each signal shall be timed from the beginning of its sound.

(b) The starting and finishing lines shall be tangential to, and on the course side of, the starting and finishing marks.

 

Andrew

RRS E2.6(b) is the rule which states that the line is sighted on the course side of the marks.

So for the start, the sighting line is your diagram C always assuming that the start is set for a Windward leg, which would normally be the most appropriate. 

For the finish the course side of the finishing marks would be your diagram B if the finish line were to be on a Windward leg.

Effectively, the course side of the marks is the side which is closest to

a)  The first mark that is being sailed to for the start and

b) The last mark sailed FROM to the finish.

The start line should be approximately tangential (i.e. at right angles) from its centre to the first mark, although that may need adjusting due to wind strength variations along the line or sailors perception of where to start.

The finish line should similarly be tangential to the last mark (or centre of the gate) so that there is approximately equal distance to each end rather than one end being favoured.

Hope this helps.

Peter Baldwin ND Councillor & RYA NRO

Edited August 2, 20232 yr by Peter Baldwin

14 minutes ago, Peter Baldwin said:

Andrew

RRS E2.6(b) is the rule which states that the line is sighted on the course side of the marks.

So for the start, the sighting line is your diagram C always assuming that the start is set for a Windward leg, which would normally be the most appropriate. 

For the finish the course side of the finishing marks would be your diagram B if the finish line were to be on a Windward leg.

Effectively, the course side of the marks is the side which is closest to

a)  The first mark that is being sailed to for the start and

b) The last mark sailed FROM to the finish.

The start line should be approximately tangential (i.e. at right angles) from its centre to the first mark, although that may need adjusting due to wind strength variations along the line or sailors perception of where to start.

The finish line should similarly be tangential to the last mark (or centre of the gate) so that there is approximately equal distance to each end rather than one end being favoured.

Hope this helps.

Peter Baldwin ND Councillor & RYA NRO

So for absolute clarity

C for the start line ?

B for the finish line ?

Yes in both cases assuming that it is a Windward start and finish.  Key is the direction to the first mark for the start and the last mark for the finish.

It is the side closest to the first mark for the start and the last mark for the finish.

7 hours ago, Andrew Start said:

Good morning, some healthy discussion in our club regarding this, please see pic, which is the correct line A,B or C, or something else, I have had a couple of different responses within our club, so it would be good if someone can point me to "the Rule" 

 

Thanks 

 

Andy HRYC

Forgot to look at the wind direction 😂😂😂😂

My view is that we cannot answer the question in the original diagram as we are missing key information -

- where is the first mark (so we know which is the course side)? (we normally start on  a beat but not always)

- are the starting marks described in the sailing instructions for the event (could override the rule E3.4(b))?

I cover this on my web site

https://sites.google.com/site/johnsrcsailingrulesandtactics/

see Chapter 2 The Start - and see page 7.

I don't know which rule book Andrew is using but the current RRS and Appendix E contains

E3.4 Starting and Finishing(a) Rule 26 is changed to:Heats shall be started using warning, preparatory and starting signals at one-minute intervals. During the minute before the starting signal, additional sound or oral signals shall be made at ten-second intervals, and during the final ten seconds at one second intervals. Each signal shall be timed from the beginning of its sound.

(b) The starting and finishing lines shall be between the course sides of the starting and finishing marks.

 

So assuming the first leg is a beat to windward, and there are no special descriptions in the SI, then my answer would be C based on E3.4(b).

John

18 minutes ago, John Ball said:

My view is that we cannot answer the question in the original diagram as we are missing key information -

- where is the first mark (so we know which is the course side)? (we normally start on  a beat but not always)

- are the starting marks described in the sailing instructions for the event (could override the rule E3.4(b))?

I cover this on my web site

https://sites.google.com/site/johnsrcsailingrulesandtactics/

see Chapter 2 The Start - and see page 7.

I don't know which rule book Andrew is using but the current RRS and Appendix E contains

E3.4 Starting and Finishing(a) Rule 26 is changed to:Heats shall be started using warning, preparatory and starting signals at one-minute intervals. During the minute before the starting signal, additional sound or oral signals shall be made at ten-second intervals, and during the final ten seconds at one second intervals. Each signal shall be timed from the beginning of its sound.

(b) The starting and finishing lines shall be between the course sides of the starting and finishing marks.

 

So assuming the first leg is a beat to windward, and there are no special descriptions in the SI, then my answer would be C based on E3.4(b).

John

Hi John, see pic for clarity 

Hi Andrew,

in your new diagram, the start is shown as a beat, and if the finish is a run, then the start and finish lines are shown by your label for the finish line. The label for the start line is incorrect.

John

3 minutes ago, John Ball said:

Hi Andrew,

in your new diagram, the start is shown as a beat, and if the finish is a run, then the start and finish lines are shown by your label for the finish line. The label for the start line is incorrect.

John

There is also a downwind gate below the start/finish line 

 

I just took it as read that wound be the norm 

18 minutes ago, John Ball said:

Hi Andrew,

in your new diagram, the start is shown as a beat, and if the finish is a run, then the start and finish lines are shown by your label for the finish line. The label for the start line is incorrect.

John

corrected  full scenario 

Hi Andrew,

 

this latest diagram still has the error - reverse the labels for start and finish to correct it.

Under E3.4(b) the line is on the course side of the start/finish marks - so the side closest to the appropriate mark.

 

John

57 minutes ago, Andrew Start said:

Corrected, corrected Full Scenario, My powerpoint skills are now depleted 

 

The definition is OCS which is on course side so if a windward start  then the course will start at tne winward edge of the start linebouys and assuming a windward finish the leeward side of the bouys

Thanks all for adding clarity to this, I'm now going for a lay down 😁

Thank you Andy for persevering with this - and thank you to everyone who contributed so diligently. It seems we now have a definitive answer (though I sense another intense bankside discussion coming on😉). I still mostly sail dinghies; and usually they’re much bigger than a starting mark, so perhaps there’s less controversy. But for radio yachts the diameter of a mark might be almost half a boat length. So Andy’s original question is an important one and I’m relieved it’s been answered! We’ll still have claims from boats called OCS that they were not over the line, but at least we can now agree on which line is the correct one to use.

On 02/08/2023 at 16:09, Peter Baldwin said:

The finish line should similarly be tangential to the last mark (or centre of the gate) so that there is approximately equal distance to each end rather than one end being favoured.

 

From a geometrical perspective you mean perpendicular.  Tangential refers to a line "which touches the circumference of a circle at a singlepoint"

Absolutely correct Larry - it should be perpendicular and I should have spotted that error in the original statement attributed to E2.6 (b) from Andrew.  As John Ball points out the original definition is not from the current RRS and I should have looked up the current wording first before writing my response.  Need to check the reply first otherwise everyone is going to get very confused.

I would say that the finish line should be perpendicular to the wind, and tangential to the course side of the marks.

John

On 05/08/2023 at 10:25, Guzzilazz said:

From a geometrical perspective you mean perpendicular.  Tangential refers to a line "which touches the circumference of a circle at a singlepoint"

He does mean tangential just as you describe. 

2 hours ago, Trevor said:

He does mean tangential just as you describe. 

Which tangent is it in that case? There is an infinite number of tangents on a circle, but the FINISH LINE is perpendicular a line drawn from the last turning mark of the course through the centre between the two marks of the finish line

The finish is the course side of the finish line or transit. This may or may not be perpendicular to the last mark.

the important thing is that the race takes place between the start marks and the finish marks on the race course side of each.

2 hours ago, Guzzilazz said:

Which tangent is it in that case? There is an infinite number of tangents on a circle, but the FINISH LINE is perpendicular a line drawn from the last turning mark of the course through the centre between the two marks of the finish line

The line does not go through the centre of the marks!!