In another thread John 949 wrote:

There is an argument that Radio Sailing needs to investigate more specific rules as certain things (like judging overlaps when sailing directly away from the control area) are almost impossible at any distance.   The chances of a top down approach working are pretty slim given the bureaucracy and inertia involved.  Perhaps clubs could experiment with local rules and hopefully drive any good ideas from the bottom up.

To be clear, the RYA has an administrative simple procedure for approving experimental changes to the rules.

To counter John's criticism of  'bureaucracy and inertia', as Racing Rules Committee Chair of IRSA, I would be very grateful for any suggestions. If you could identify rules that do not work, that should be changed. May I suggest that, for the moment, we limit our discussion to the rules that govern what happens when boats meet - Part 2 of the Racing Rules of Sailing.

For instance:

- it is very rare that, as an umpire, I penalise a boat for breaking rule 17, On the same tack, proper course.

- RRS 18.3, Tacking in the Zone does not really work in radio sailing. It is difficult to judge, especially as with the relatively stiff sails used in radio sailing it is difficult to judge when a boat is above close hauled.

I would be really interested to read your suggestions.

I am amazed to note that there seems to be entire satisfaction with the current Racing Rules of Sailing!

To put the cat amoung the pigeons.

1.

Rule 18.2 and 18.3. (21/24 book) should not apply at the windward mark.

Rules 10, 11,12, and 13 and 16.1 adequately cover the situation, and are well understood by most sailors.

2.

Rule 17 should be deleted .

Particularly when boats are running it almost impossible for radio sailors viewing  their boats from the side too estimate two boat lengths. Rule 11 and 16.1 adequately cover the situation.

3.

Rules 16.1  and 14 need to be emphasised for radio sailing  with more clarity given to  the point at which the obligation to respond begins, and time allowed for the  response. 

Mike Ure

 

 

Having raised the question I’ll give my thoughts.

In my view there are far too many collisions in Radio Sailing.  Hardly a race goes by without at least one collision. This doesn’t seem to happen in full size sailing so we need to ask why. I can think of three possible reasons:

1) It’s just more difficult to judge speed, angles and distances when remote from the boat.

2) Competitors are more willing to ‘push the limits’ and risk the consequences when remote from the boat.

3) The current rules do not work well for Radio Sailing.

Number 1 is pretty much a given in my view and there is little we can do about it, however my view is that Radio Sailing should be about who can get from A to B in the shortest time, not who has the best eyesight and ability to judge distance – more on this later.

I believe number 2 is true and is more an attitude problem than a rules problem per se, however the ‘consequence’ is worth considering. If the consequences of infringing are minimal then there is little deterrent and the rules are actually encouraging risky behaviour. I know the one turn penalty is meant to encourage people to take their penalty (and avoid protests) but is the deterrent element enough?

I doubt many would argue that applying the current rules in certain Radio Sailing situations is difficult, if not impossible, due the view the skipper has of their boat and the surrounding boats. Judging distance when sailing directly away from oneself and the line when sailing across are difficult, but the current rules require fairly high precision in these properties. How you keep clear when you can’t even see your boat within a pack is a mystery I’ve yet to solve.

There is perhaps a fourth reason: people don’t know the rules! Can’t do much about that but it doesn’t help if the rules are complicated or difficult to interpret – look no further than Rule 18. As an aside, if you haven’t done so, look at the team racing version of Rule 18. Don’t know how well it works but at least it’s simple.

Course setting is also a factor. Limitations of wind direction and geography often restrict the layout of the course but Starboard roundings, heavily starboard biased lines, short initial legs and crossing paths on different legs of the course are all good ways to promote collisions. Most Radio Sailing takes place at sites with lots of local wind variations. This frequently results in big speed variations between boats e.g boats approaching a mark at speed while others are almost stationary close to it. I believe that some rules do not work well in these circumstances.

There are a number of situations where I believe the rules either don’t work or could be changed to lessen the probability of collisions. There are also some cases where the rules favour the trailing boat and I don’t believe this is fair. I’ll list them below but I’ll discuss each one in a separate post (when I get round to it) so that any discussions of a specific rule can be kept together.

Rule 13 – I belie this rule is not well adhered to. Too many people seem to think you gain the rights on the new tack the second you pass head to wind. In my opinion a trailing boat should not need to start to take avoiding action until the tacking boat has its sails full on the new course.

Rule 18 – Tacking in the Zone. When approaching a windward mark directly upwind of the observer, it is hard to judge the lay-line and so there is a tendency to underlay the mark and hence the need to pinch up or tack within the zone. This can lead to some nasty collisions. It also leads to people tacking inside another boat which is already on a tight lay line. Rule 18.3 is supposed to prevent this but in my experience it is totally ignored. (I don’t know whether this is through ignorance or malice). The result often results in several boats ‘rafted up’ in irons at the windward mark or collisions as people tack into the path of oncoming boats (see also comments on Rule 13, particularly in the case of starboard roundings).

Cutting Inside while Mark Rounding – The rules say that a boat following closely behind (without an overlap) may cut in between the leading boat and the mark as the leading boat rounds if there is room. In Radio Sailing the leading boat has a much harder job judging the mark rounding as the trailing boat can use the leading boat as a marker and is therefore much better able to judge the mark rounding. I really dislike the trailing boat having such an obvious advantage and because you can get away with it so often, certain people seem to assume there will be space, whether there is or is not.

Overtaking to leeward when sailing across the line of vision – Judging the distance between boats when viewed form the side is hard. If you overtake to leeward then you must not sail above your proper course but the windward boat must still keep clear (Rule 17 / Rule 11). Too often the boats slowly converge to contact. Windward claims leeward was breaking Rule 17, leeward claims windward was breaking Rule 11.

Overlaps when sailing directly away from the line of sight – This is the classic Radio Sailing issue, how can you decide if the inside boat has an overlap and is the leading boat in the zone yet or not?

I have ideas for some of these but the last one is hard to solve.

 

Thank you John for your answer.

Some comments:

1. Course setting is also a factor. I would argue that the biggest cause of multiple pile ups, especially at the windward mark, is simply the distance between the control area and the mark. The human eye has its limits. Beyond a certain distance it becomes difficult, if not impossible to judge:

- laylines

-distances and angles between boats, this judging if boats are on a collision course

- distances between boats that are overlapped.

The most useful indicator that marks are too far away is that neither competitors nor observers can read sail numbers. For some mysterious reason all race officers are possessed of superhuman vision.

Personally, I believe that a race committee has an obligation to set a course that offers competitors fair sailing. Setting marks too far away is unfair. A race committee is required to run racing as directed by the organising committee (RRS 90). The OA has every right to direct a racing committee to lay marks within the comfortable range of vision for competitors.

2. look at the team racing version of Rule 18. Don’t know how well it works but at least it’s simple. In reality, there is little difference, team racing deletes RRS 18.4 (which does not apply at a gate anyway) and modifies, without really simplifying RRS 18.2(a). The match racing rule at marks is simple - but that would mean that at a windward mark to be left to port the boat approaching the mark on port tack would be entitled to mark room from the time they enter the zone until she leaves it. Simple, effective but somewhat radical

3. people don’t know the rules! I wwould agree. The only answer is education. The RYA had a club rules adviser system that meant that at least one person in the club had been taught the rules, and could advise other members. Perhaps this scheme could be revised for radio sailing.

4. RRS 13 The text of rule 13 very carefully avoids using the word tacking. A boat changes tack when it passes head to wind (Definition), however from the time the boat passes head to wind until she is on a close-hauled course (not necessarily with the sails full) she must keep clear. If when she does reach a close-hauled course she acquires right of way over another boat she must initially give the other boat room to keep clear.

5. Rule 18.3 This rule does not really work in radio sailing - especially when the the marks are beyond the range of the human eye to make fine judgements. It is a common interpretation to consider that a boat that arrives on port when boats are arriving on starboard, and causes a pile-up, should be penalised for a breach of RRS 2 Fair Sailing.

Use of the match racing rule would possibly help, but I am not convinced that the radio sailing community is ready to allow port tackers to round the mark unencumbered.

IRSA submitted a proposal that a  boat that enters the zone on port should give mark-room to a boat that enters the zone on starboard. This was put to one side by WS but could be revived.

6 Cutting Inside while Mark Rounding  WS Case 63 states that when space is made available to a boat that is not entitled to it, she may, at her own risk, take advantage of the space.

This is a common occurence in radio sailing (dare I mention distance from the control area to the mark again!) when a boat overruns the mark. A following boat may take advantage of the space made available. One issue is that the leading boat is no longer sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled, so is no longer exonerated if she breaks RR2 10-13 or 15-16, so cannot manouevre freely to round the mark.

Another common scenario is a leading boat does a tight rounding and as she hardens up she slips sideways, leaving a gap to windward for a smart sailor to  sail into.

7 RRS 17; There is an argument that we could do without RRS17, as the boat becoming overlapped from astern is bound by both rules 15 and 16. Proper course is not easy to judge (except at the offset mark, when it obvious if a boat is reaching away from the mark rather than bearing away on to a run.

I think something needs to be done in the rules about setting radio sailing courses, all marks should be set so that sail numbers can be read from the control area.

At the last IOM ranking, it was chaos at some of the windward and spreader marks. Observers were shouting "contact red boat with blue boat" or "orange boat with yellow boat". Skippers were then supposed to understand who were being called. There were many unprotested and ignored incidents because reading the sail number was impossible. Many skippers missing marks, then turning back and running into starboard boats. People saying they have overlap or not when sailing away from themself at 100m distance... Its not a wonder there are arguments.

Long courses are great untill you get to the marks.

Perhaps the course setter could carry sail number cards and ask the RO if he can read the number clearly after dropping the bouy. If the course ends up being shortend, do 3 laps.

My 2p

Austin,

I agree with you. Please bear with me as I run through my argument on this point -some may consider this to be more of a rant than anything else, for which I make no apologies.

I would argue that setting of courses at ever increasing distance is creating a serious issue for all competition, from club racing to World Championships.

The Call Book for Radio Sailing states:

In radio sailing the boat and the competitor controlling her are usually separated by some, possibly significant distance. The competitor may not be well placed to view any incident and to rapidly analyse the relative speed, angle and distance between the boats. Therefore, interpretations of the rules should be appropriate to the conditions and take account of these limitations.

(Incidentally this is also why umpires and observers should remain in the control area, so that their reading of any incident takes into account these limitations).

The major limitation is the human eye itself. For ordinary mortals, according to commonly available charts, that all seem to agree, the maximum readable distance for 4 inch high letters is 150 feet ( 45.7 metres). Under RRS App G, modified for radio sailing in Appendix E) the maximum size for sail numbers is  110mm (4.33 inches). For some reason this limit does not seem to apply to race officers, who all appear to possess super-human vision!

Experience suggests that radio sailors have good vision as repeated testing has shown that we can read sail numbers at about 70m (measures made using golf range finders at many events). This may just mean that sailors with average or less that average vision abandon the sport of radio sailing.

Once sail numbers are not readable then other aspects of vision also rapidly deteriorate: judgement of lay lines, collision courses, relative positions between boats (gauge, overlaps when boats are sailing towards or away from the viewer). It is clear to all sailors that incidents at the windward mark increase greatly the further away the marks are; The resulting chaos, with rafts of boats drifting slowly downwind as several angry (mainly middle aged) men exchange pleasantries on the bank is a  sorry spectacle that can only bring the sport of radio sailing into disrepute.

I would argue that it is the task of the race committee to respect the real limitations of the human eye when setting the course. It is unacceptable to expect sailors, observers and umpires to be presented with a course that does not allow them to compete or officate correctly.

According to the WS Race Management Manual:

The role of the Course Race Officer is an on the water manager, (...) another important role is to make decisions to ensure the fairness and safety of
the competition.

I would argue that a key decision to ensure the fairness of a competition is to set a course on which the competitors can view their boat and analyse relative speed, angle and distance between the boats. For this reason IRSA has written into the update (soon to be published)  to the IRSA Race Management Policies

Courses will be set so that sail numbers of boats at the marks are clearly visible from the nearest part of the control area. Based on experience, in good light conditions, this means that marks will be laid no further than 70m from the control area.

The question remains, how can sailors insist that race officers set course that are fair to the average competitor. One way is to influence the clubs who organise events. RRS 90.1 states:

The race committee shall conduct races as directed by the organising authority and as required by the rules.

A club has every right to direct the race officer it appoints to set courses with marks no more that 70m from the bank. The MYA could stipulate that courses for all ranking events courses should be set within this limit.

This may require some imaginative race management. One solution, inspired by observing racing at Fleetwood, is to limit the sailing area. On a long narrow pond like Fleetwood, suitable courses can be laid with wind up to 45° to the axis of the lake. On an unrestricted sailing area with a 100m long control area, at 45° the windward mark would be set about 110 m offshore.

I look forward to your comments.

 

It is not correct to impose “standard” distances in the SSI or RRS, as each class, location and race day is different.

Training of race teams (and skippers) is more appropriate.

I have to agree with Darin.  I was sailing at the Round Pound at the weekend and no mark was more than about 20 metres from an accessible part of the bank.  The marks were however over a hundred metres apart so a lot of walking was involved.  I really enjoyed the long legs for two reasons 1) it gave many tactical options (shame I got it wrong so often) and 2) it spread the fleet out lessening the bumping and boring at the marks.  

Course layout has to take account of the local geography i.e. what you can see and what you can access, but long legs are generally to be encouraged as they provide better and fairer racing in my opinion.  There is however the 'accessibility' issue.  Anyone who wasn't capable of walking hundreds of metres per race at a reasonable speed would have struggled at the weekend.  The thought of half a dozen mobility scooters racing round the outside of the pond, trying to avoid each other and the general public while watching their boats.......

There is no discussion here on the merits of gates at top and bottom marks. 

This solution solved the problem the IOM worlds!.

At a local regional regatta with a gate at the top mark, marks to starboard was a good  round.

Stb boats could not tack directly in front of Port boats allowing the fetching port boat to slide under the tacking Stb boat.   In practise boats were evenly spread each side of the gate. 

Sail the beat to aim at the mid point between between the gate , make the decision on which mark at the lay  line. 

The amount of traffic was usually the determinant factor keeping congestion low.

Mike Ure

Some good points made in this thread and thank you Gordon for openly seeking the thoughts of skippers.

Distance of marks from bank is simple where sail number clarity is considered a key point. If we can’t read them, then its a drama.
While I agree with the above, recent events, especially International (IOM Worlds24 and Euros 23) showed a larger than expected number of repeated incidents at the start and finish lines as well as the windward marks.
The windward gate did not solve a problem, it only shifted it. The amount of mark contacts that were missed, boat contacts missed and needless crossing of paths that put boats in contacts they otherwise would not have been in through clean sailing, was not a solution. It took away good race craft and replaced it with a lottery where boats clearly behind were often advantaged over needless contacts ahead of them. Just as many incidents, very few called and repeat offenders enjoying the free ride. Not a good solution and a poorer contest, dumbing down skill it requires to be successful.

At UK level day 2 of the Chelmsford IOM Ranking had a windward mark set less than 30 feet from competitors yet the amount of contacts were as bad as any distance issue. A windward gate was trialled at the IOM Nationals at Poole and caused more grief than it solved with far more boats crossing paths for incendents.

Now to the problem and i’m afraid as much as we can blame distance, us as skippers need to change our attitudes that have been waining over the past 10 or so years. Whether your boat is nearby in clear view or at distance, skippers near always will know what tack they are on. They will know if they are approaching a windward mark on port and have an idea if they are in the zone. They will know if they have not made the mark on starboard as the layline was difficult to judge. What they should also know is that does not give a freepass to continue in on port tack making no effort to go behind the staboard boat train, tack back onto port at the mark and cause a pile up or just plow in hoping to get away with what you can.

As for running downwind to a distant marker, you will have a good idea if you were the initial clear ahead boat or the overtaking boat. If overtaking and there is debate, then the reality is you are unlikey to have success at protest. Worth communicating with the boats near you if you are clear ahead, overlapped etc to help your cause but if in doubt, the same as sailing upwind on port you should be looking to avoid an incident, not create one.

The above and similar poor sailing can easily be stamped out at International umpired events with a simple marking system where a boat hailed for an infringement is noted post race. Once a boat/skipper receives infringement a number of notes (3-5?) they are subject to a Rule 2 hearing that could result in anything from a warning, a scoring penalty or disqualification from a upcoming heat. Skippers would be on notice and behaviour would start changeing. The same system at National and regional level could be used with observing. I.e. if it is recorded on a notepad that boat 42 once again caused a pile up at the windward mark (for the 3rd-5th time?), took his penalty but left a trail of destruction, he would be called in by a jury and a penalty decided on.

It is funny how the faster bigger classes often (not always) can manage to avoid incidents whatever the distance, knowing that a collision could send their boat to the bottom of the lake, yet the smaller classes can resemble bumper cars. Skipper attitudes and mutual respect could be a reason perhaps?

Brad

 

 

I was watching an interview of the chief umpire for the Sail GP and he mentioned that the most important rule that they enforce both on and off the water is "No Damage". He showed examples of boats colliding where the give way boat was penalised, but also in some circumstances the right of way boat was also penalised for not taking due care and attention around their boat. Near misses were also penalised.

From my experience of sailing at many venues around the country very few can actual set a long enough first beat to separate the fleet by the first mark at a readable sail number distance.

The big events such as Ranking and Nationals have fleets of 20 to 24 boats, this is essential for those skippers wishing to get experience of what a big Europeans or Worlds will be like, but it brings it's own challenges and we as skippers have to change our approach to sailing in 20 boat fleets compared with 10 at club level when approaching on port very likely will work as you're only navigating around 2 or 3 boats at a time and not 10+.

I also think skippers should be taking far more care in the smaller classes to avoid contact and avoid situations where contact is highly likely.

 

Darin wrote:

It is not correct to impose “standard” distances in the SSI or RRS, as each class, location and race day is different.

Training of race teams (and skippers) is more appropriate.

I would agree that it is inappropriate to set exact distances. The IRSA text says:

Courses will be set so that sail numbers of boats at the marks are clearly visible from the nearest part of the control area. Based on experience, in good light conditions, this means that marks will be laid no further than 70m from the control area.

This sets out a desired outcome - sail numbers should be visible at marks, and transmits experience gained at a large number of events. If this text applies, competitors would expect marks to be laid within their field of vision. If the RO decides to lay the marks further away he should explain why he has taken that decision.

 

Brad's points suggestion is interesting. Repeated infringements could result in a warning, followed by an aggravated penalty for the next infringement.

 

 

Following Brad's  comments, here is a draft of an item I wrote some time ago, but never published.

Skipper attitude towards respecting the rules and rules compliance 

This is me speaking from my ‘Soapbox’.

Can you relate to these incidents.

1. At the start line, a group of boats are sitting luffing and holding station near the right end mark. Another boat comes reaching in and forces her way between the windward boat and the mark, or comes from astern and squeezes between two of the boats. As the gun goes, the inevitable contact occurs, spoiling the race for several boats

2. A group of boats are approaching the windward mark on the starboard lay line for a ‘Marks to Port’ rounding. One or two boats come into the zone on port, close to the mark and try to squeeze in rather than ducking behind the Right of Way boats. The starboard boats are forced to luff up to avoid the late tackers, and end up in a raft, spoiling the race for several boats.

Often the infringing boat fails to take a penalty, or argues with the ‘victim’ when they are protested.

Remember that in sailing, we do not have referees with whistles to call penalties – the opening section of the Racing Rules of Sailing says –

BASIC PRINCIPLES
SPORTSMANSHIP AND THE RULES
Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when a boat breaks a rule and is not exonerated she will promptly take an appropriate penalty or action, which may be to retire.

So when you agree to take part in a regatta, you agree to respect and honor the other competitors and the rules, and if you make a mistake, take an appropriate penalty.

A famous quote from one of the greatest sailors of all time - Paul Elvstrøm

"You haven't won the race, if in winning the race you have lost the respect of your competitors."

To me, the problem is that some skippers are selfish and have a ‘win at all costs’ attitude. These skippers disrespect the other competitors and the concept of sportsmanship.

After the start, the most congested area of the racecourse is usually the windward mark on the first leg, as the boats have not had time to separate. There has been much discussion about possible rules changes to R 18.3 to discourage the late port tack approach. One suggestion – but NOT a rule as this point – is for the port tack boat that tacks in the zone to work on the basis that they have to give Mark Room to any starboard tack boats that enter the zone already on stbd tack. If you work on the basis that you would have to give Mark Room to the starboard tacker, then there is no room for you to tack to leeward, and so you either pass astern, or will not even attempt a port approach – instead, you will go to the right and get onto the starboard lay line well before the zone. This simple attitude change should go a long way to reducing the jam ups at the weather mark.

 

John

2 hours ago, John Ball said:

we do not have referees with whistles to call penalties 

 

Yep. And what we do have is a bunch of participants who are all individuals. (Well, except for me 😄)

I can recall many of the incidents you cite there. And I'm also aware that some people have it their make-up to be more bullish in their view of an incident: He/she who shouts loudest and/or first seems to - instinctively, even if not consciously - seize on an opportunity to push the other skipper into backing down. Especially if the latter is less experienced, or of a less confrontational temperament. Yet might actually be the one in the right....

Sadly an over-fuelled sense of, let's call it just 'gamesmanship'...., can spoil things for the majority who simply enjoy getting out and sailing. As with all kinds of clubs, sailing, sporting or otherwise - where will the clubs end up if the 'grass roots' members get turned off....?

 

I am hoping to return to RC sailing to run alongside my " full size" dinghy racing.

Certainly in a dinghy ,few are going to pile into a busy windward mark on port- the probable damage, possible injury and a good chance of a " discussion" in the club car park dissuade most. But in RC it would seem that being on the port lay line to round the windward mark and accepting the penalty  after boat and maybe mark contact is worth a single penalty turn. It seems wrong that a boat having taken a penalty may be in front of the boat who joined the line of starboard tackers who avoided collision

Is my perception that this has become more common ,incorrect ?

Would making the penalty more turns dissuade most?

I feel that adding more rules is looking at the issues from the wrong end of the telescope.

i have sailed at venues from Bournville to Datchet, West Kirby to Lake Garda and the rules have been consistent. The issue is not the rules, it’s the competitors. 

We can do a lot to help ourselves as a sport but until individual skippers step up and accept that they have infringed we wont change.

It amazes me how many people (I include myself) leave no room for error at a distance mark leaving no way to deal with an issue. We all know those who come barrelling into an incident shouting “starboard” then complain when they get involved, almost as if they want to become entangled!

We also know those who acknowledge their mistakes graciously, but also those whose pride does not appear to allow them to say “sorry, my fault”. Until we accept that clean racing is the quickest way around the racecourse we will be following the best across the finish line.

 

 

 

Darin,

The question 'was which rules would you change?'. I believe that there are enough rules for sailors, but some of them could be improved. I fully agree that rules observance needs improving. I suggest that this will not happen unless in each club there are one or more persons who have a real knowledge of the rules, and are in a position to transmit this knowledge. The rules advisor concept is one solution.

Another point that has emerged is that race officers can do much to encourage rules observance by setting courses that competitors can actually see. Recurrent issues at a far off mark are largely due to the reality of human vision, at that distance it is difficult, if not impossible to accurately judge the lay line.

Ian wrote: 

But in RC it would seem that being on the port lay line to round the windward mark and accepting the penalty  after boat and maybe mark contact is worth a single penalty turn. It seems wrong that a boat having taken a penalty may be in front of the boat who joined the line of starboard tackers who avoided collision.

RRS E4.3 states that a boat may take a 1-turn penalty at the tie of the incident. However:

 RRS E4.3(b) if the boat gained an advantage in the heat or race by her breach depite taking her penalty, her penalty shall be additional One-Turn penalties until her advantage is lost.

RS Call P4 states:

Advantage should be measured from a time and position immediately before the boat broke the rule for which she is taking the penalty, until the completion of her last one-turn penalty. If the boat's position in the heat or race after taking one or more penalty turns is better than it would have been if she had not broken a rule, she has not completed her penalty and needs to make one or more further turns.
If she fails to do so until she no longer has an advantage, she may be further penalized for her breach either following a hearing or, in umpired racing, by the
umpire.
Any advantage gained is to be measured relative to the whole fleet. A boat may, after taking one or more one-turn penalties, be in a better position than the boat she infringed, but in a worse position than if she had not broken a rule. In this case she has completed her penalty.

RS Call B2 gives an example:

A boat, P, tacks inside the zone to leeward of 3 boats on starboard, all overlapped, A,B and C. As a result C on the outside is obliged to sail above close hauled to avoid the boats inside her.

P has broken  RRS 18.3. If P chooses to take a penalty then after taking the penalty she should be in no better a position than  if she had not taken a penalty. P would not have broken a rule if she had allowed the other boats to cross ahead, and then follow the m round the mark.

If A would have been first boat in the heat to round the mark, then P would have been 4th, if she had not broken  a rule. After taking penalties P should be in 4th place or worse, other wise she still has an advantage. Note that this means 4th place in the heat, irrespective of where AB and C are placed.

4 hours ago, Gordon W Davies said:

RS Call P4 states:

Advantage should be measured from a time and position immediately before the boat broke the rule for which she is taking the penalty, until the completion of her last one-turn penalty. If the boat's position in the heat or race after taking one or more penalty turns is better than it would have been if she had not broken a rule, she has not completed her penalty and needs to make one or more further turns.
If she fails to do so until she no longer has an advantage, she may be further penalized for her breach either following a hearing or, in umpired racing, by the
umpire.
Any advantage gained is to be measured relative to the whole fleet. A boat may, after taking one or more one-turn penalties, be in a better position than the boat she infringed, but in a worse position than if she had not broken a rule. In this case she has completed her penalty.

That's a good example. I'm sure we can all grasp the intent of this, but wow, so many words to attempt to cover all scenarios. I think there was a case along those lines today - one skipper pointing out that the infringer at the mark did their turn yet was still ahead at the start of the next leg.

At club level everything is, I hope, less fractious.... but even an a Nats there's just a few Event officials, plus Observers drawn from the fleet. No well-staffed and independent jury, no video replay. Yes at some level it does have to become [a hobby which to some is something] more serious, but few skippers want a 30min delay with protest hearings. I guess that's the contradictory nature of 'amateur competition'?

(I would just add tho that today's DF65 fleet at LRSC was all pretty good-natured and fair-minded. And a cracking breeze too 🙂)

5 hours ago, Gordon W Davies said:

Darin,

The question 'was which rules would you change?'. I believe that there are enough rules for sailors, but some of them could be improved. I fully agree that rules observance needs improving. I suggest that this will not happen unless in each club there are one or more persons who have a real knowledge of the rules, and are in a position to transmit this knowledge. The rules advisor concept is one solution.

Another point that has emerged is that race officers can do much to encourage rules observance by setting courses that competitors can actually see. Recurrent issues at a far off mark are largely due to the reality of human vision, at that distance it is difficult, if not impossible to accurately judge the lay line.

Hi Gordon,

I would have to say I very much agree with Darin’s views on this. Adding more rules that further take us from the RRS adds further complication in a discipline where we have continued issues at all levels to get the basics across on how we race the course. Nobody is perfect, mistakes happen at all levels but if the standard is set by the more experienced skippers, then that is the best way forward. We can all do better.

While I get and agree the point on course setting regarding distance, we need to recognie that this is not the bigger problem. Our race teams do their best with what they have for the given lay of the land and conditions, I am sure mindful of distance problems. With courses well within guidelines, the same issues are still there. As I referenced in my previous post, to see the amount of contacts and poor sailing missed at the 24 Worlds and 23 Euros on the start and finish line in clear view and at windward gate marks brought close for the sake of ‘vision’, you could be excused for thinking there were no umpires present. 

My point would be that we are at point in International events where Umpires blame the RO and skippers, the RO blames the skippers and umpires and you can guess who the skippers blame. Sadly the communication of years gone by has clearly broken down since where all worked together for a better event, instead taking us back to the dark days pre-2006ish. What we are left with is a race no different to a game of football where penalties are milked and players get away with what they can. 

As Darin suggests, it is not the rules that are the greater problem. How we police them better at all levels to weed out repeat offenders in a manageable way, without altering the challenge of a race and penalising those that do their best to avoid incident by sailing in the right manner is what needs attention in my view.

After x amount of warnings or yellow cards, a football player gets sent off or sits a game out…

Brad

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Brad Gibson said:

After x amount of warnings or yellow cards, a football player gets sent off or sits a game out…

Brad

And in fact U/Black flag starts are probably - albeit less specific to indivual(s) - in that same general vein?

21 minutes ago, Colin Helliwell said:

And in fact U/Black flag starts are probably - albeit less specific to indivual(s) - in that same general vein?

I’m not so sure Colin, 

To me the weight of scoring penalty, coupled with a certain fleet relegation does not fit the crime on that one.

I appreciate races need to get underway but am of the school where everyone racing the course should be the objective. ROs taking joy in catching a boat out is not what sailing is about…

One item that could be changed is the penalty for BFD/UFD. As I understand it, the penalty for DSQ is fleet plus 1. In a 76 boat HMS championship, that is a huge scoring penalty especially for a boat in (say) A or B fleet. Perhaps this penalty should be last place in heat plus 1.

This is a very philosophical discussion beyond my pay grade!🙄

John

BFD/UFD scoring are part of HMS/SHRS if sailing heats in radio sailing I think? If so the decision to change needs proposing for consideration.

I don’t think it falls under the remit of WS/IRSA etc unless using A2 scoring without amendment.

Might be wrong though 🤷

 

Edited March 30, 20251 yr by Darin Ballington
Clarification