Scoring a Series

[John949]

I'm sure many clubs hold competitions that involve several day's results.  For example say; a Spring series, consisting of 6 days racing spread over a couple of months, with 8 races a day.  I'd like to know how other clubs would score such a series.

Just to give you some clues as to the points I'm interested in:

1) How do you cope with the fact that the number of 'starters' on a given day / race can vary quite a bit?

2) How do you score people who don't turn up on a given day?

My own view is that the current RYA Low Point system doesn't work very fairly when applied to this type of series, so I'd like to know if other clubs use alternative systems (e.g. High Point).

[Darin Ballington]

It doesn’t really matter which system you use as long as everyone is agreed, personally I prefer the MYA ranking system as a way of scoring a series as the maths adjusts the score to take into account the number of entrants, such that a 3rd place on the day with on 5 entries does not score as much as 3rd place with 20 entries. This to me is the simplest way, but others will have a different view.

[Stephen B]

Also have a club person trophy, so by turning up, even if you are not winning all the time, you still might result at the end of the year….

eg. https://hryc.co.uk/the-tim-prince-clubman-cup/
Stephen

[Mike Ewart]

A relatively simple way is score each  day as Steve suggested then take an agreed number of days for exa ple a series of 8 racing days ta,e all the entrants best 6 races or as sailwave does for a longer series half the  umber of race days plus one

[Guzzilazz]

I believe the RYA system sorts this.  In Dinghy racing a series will run for several weeks, and you will only get one or two races per day.  Scoring over the series relies upon the Race Officers understanding the differences between DNS (Did Not Start) and DNC (Did Not Compete).  The scores allocated to people in those two categories are defined as (italics are mine):

DNS = number of starters in the race +1

DNC = number of competitors in the series +1

We use the Android App A-Fleet, and that would make this easy.  If someone appears for the day but is late, and you add the competitor, it automatically scores them DNC.  As the series progresses, the RO only has to score those competitors not there on the day as DNC. Job jobbed.

You can also define the discard process as well.  So for a single day series, it defines you get a discard at race 4, then a second at race 8, and then one more every 8 races.  You'd probably need to change that to (say) one discard per five or six races. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Guzzilazz

[John949]

Using the MYA ranking system is an idea I hadn't thought of and it seems to have a lot of promise.

My personal view is that fairness does matter and therefore the RYA low point system is inappropriate.

The Low Point System is intended for use in a continuous regatta where the number of entrants and number of starters is almost constant.  If this is not the case then anomalies occur.  For example, if there are ten starters in one race but only five in another:  

First place scores the same so it is saying that winning a race with five boats is just as 'valuable' as winning a race with ten boats - I disagree.

Coming sixth in the ten boat race is a 'worse' result than coming last in the five boat race - how can that be fair?

DNC is a tin of worms.  Do you score it as entrants in the entire series +1 or entrants on the day +1?  The former would put a huge penalty on DNC, the latter means that DNC scores different values on different days.

The Low Point System penalises bad results and therefore discards are almost mandatory.  Again the Low Point System is intended for a regatta with relatively few DNCs among the top boats.  To cope with a 'days' worth of DNCs you need a large number of discards or else it turns into an 'attendance' competition rather than a best sailor competition.  I think Stephen B's system tends to the latter.  

My personal preference is for a high point system e.g. 1 point for each boat beaten +1.  This automatically addresses differing numbers of entrants, no need for discards and DNC is not an issue (DNC & DNF score zero).  It's also possible to win even if you miss a lot races (if you're good enough).

Unfortunately many people seem somehow wedded to the Low Point System, despite its shortcomings when applied to a series.

[Andrew Start]

6 minutes ago, John949 said:

Using the MYA ranking system is an idea I hadn't thought of and it seems to have a lot of promise.

My personal view is that fairness does matter and therefore the RYA low point system is inappropriate.

The Low Point System is intended for use in a continuous regatta where the number of entrants and number of starters is almost constant.  If this is not the case then anomalies occur.  For example, if there are ten starters in one race but only five in another:  

First place scores the same so it is saying that winning a race with five boats is just as 'valuable' as winning a race with ten boats - I disagree.

Coming sixth in the ten boat race is a 'worse' result than coming last in the five boat race - how can that be fair?

DNC is a tin of worms.  Do you score it as entrants in the entire series +1 or entrants on the day +1?  The former would put a huge penalty on DNC, the latter means that DNC scores different values on different days.

The Low Point System penalises bad results and therefore discards are almost mandatory.  Again the Low Point System is intended for a regatta with relatively few DNCs among the top boats.  To cope with a 'days' worth of DNCs you need a large number of discards or else it turns into an 'attendance' competition rather than a best sailor competition.  I think Stephen B's system tends to the latter.  

My personal preference is for a high point system e.g. 1 point for each boat beaten +1.  This automatically addresses differing numbers of entrants, no need for discards and DNC is not an issue (DNC & DNF score zero).  It's also possible to win even if you miss a lot races (if you're good enough).

Unfortunately many people seem somehow wedded to the Low Point System, despite its shortcomings when applied to a series.

I use a fairly simple to use spread sheet, which presents the results as per below, happy to share this with you 

[Colin Helliwell]

On 25/09/2023 at 10:39, John949 said:

Using the MYA ranking system is an idea I hadn't thought of and it seems to have a lot of promise.

My personal view is that fairness does matter and therefore the RYA low point system is inappropriate.

The Low Point System is intended for use in a continuous regatta where the number of entrants and number of starters is almost constant.  If this is not the case then anomalies occur.  For example, if there are ten starters in one race but only five in another:  

First place scores the same so it is saying that winning a race with five boats is just as 'valuable' as winning a race with ten boats - I disagree.

Coming sixth in the ten boat race is a 'worse' result than coming last in the five boat race - how can that be fair?

DNC is a tin of worms.  Do you score it as entrants in the entire series +1 or entrants on the day +1?  The former would put a huge penalty on DNC, the latter means that DNC scores different values on different days.

The Low Point System penalises bad results and therefore discards are almost mandatory.  Again the Low Point System is intended for a regatta with relatively few DNCs among the top boats.  To cope with a 'days' worth of DNCs you need a large number of discards or else it turns into an 'attendance' competition rather than a best sailor competition.  I think Stephen B's system tends to the latter.  

My personal preference is for a high point system e.g. 1 point for each boat beaten +1.  This automatically addresses differing numbers of entrants, no need for discards and DNC is not an issue (DNC & DNF score zero).  It's also possible to win even if you miss a lot races (if you're good enough).

Unfortunately many people seem somehow wedded to the Low Point System, despite its shortcomings when applied to a series.

Late to the thread lol, but LRSC have been using this method since Autumn '22. (With of course a number of discards, set by the number of rounds in the series).

As others mention, a series over 6 months is different to one over a few days (where all entrants are likely to be there 100%), so 'DNC' is a bit simplistic IMHO - especially at Club level.
There's a formula we use for it in Excel, but to show it pictorially:

[John949]

The problem I have with both the above suggestions is that you score the same if you beat 9 boats as you do if you beat 4 boats.  I think the former is harder to do and should therefore be rewarded more.

[Colin Helliwell]

19 minutes ago, John949 said:

The problem I have with both the above suggestions is that you score the same if you beat 9 boats as you do if you beat 4 boats.  I think the former is harder to do and should therefore be rewarded more.

On the method that LRSC uses? (Which looks approx similar maths as Andrew's) Am trying to pick out an example like that, but coming at it from the other end for example 4th out of 10 scores higher than 4th out of 5, which is harder=rewarded?

 

Edited Tuesday at 16:21 by Colin Helliwell

[John949]

Rather than delve straight into the maths, it's probably better to take a step back and ask some questions about what you want the system to achieve e.g.

Assuming we want the system to cope fairly with significant variations in entry numbers:

Should the winner's score be the same irrespective of the number of entrants?

Should last place always score the same?

Should DNC always score the same?

Should DNF always score the same?

If you have discards, should they be on a race or 'day' basis?  For example if you sail 8 races in day with two discards but then don't turn up on another day, can you count your two discards on the first day instead of two of the DNCs for the day you don't turn up?

Once you have decided on the answers to the above then you can break out Excel and design a scoring system that meets the chosen requirements.