John Taylor Posted April 1, 2023 Share Posted April 1, 2023 (edited) For my own education. Scenario 2 On the final beat to the finish line 3 boats were sailing on port tack but not in close proximity to each other. I hailed the back marker skipper from the fleet prior to me and him passing. The back marker was sailing on the running leg of the course on stbd tack. Despite my hails the skipper made no attempt to avoid collision with me. In the end we both collided and snagged each other for a period of time. I was given redress. Who has the right of way? Edited April 1, 2023 by John Taylor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ball Posted April 1, 2023 Share Posted April 1, 2023 Hi John, It is not clear from your description, but I think you are saying that you were close hauled on port, and the other boat was running downwind also on port - so R 11 applies and he as windward has to keep clear. Also as you were on different legs of the course the ROW boat should not interfere, but sail her proper course. ie - don't go 'hunting' the other boat. See R23.2 John John BallIOM CAN 307 (V8)In my private capacity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Taylor Posted April 1, 2023 Author Share Posted April 1, 2023 The back marker was sailing on the running leg of the course to the leeward gate on stbd tack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ball Posted April 1, 2023 Share Posted April 1, 2023 Then R 10 applies and you on port tack must stay clear. John John BallIOM CAN 307 (V8)In my private capacity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Taylor Posted April 1, 2023 Author Share Posted April 1, 2023 Thank you John for the education piece. Regards JT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Elliott Posted April 2, 2023 Share Posted April 2, 2023 Under what grounds were you given redress John? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Taylor Posted April 2, 2023 Author Share Posted April 2, 2023 (edited) When you consider at the time of the incident at the lakeside. I was on the final beat to the finishing line. Despite me hailing the back marker yacht, there was no attempt to alter course by both boats. In the event we both collided and tangled with each other. The rest of the fleet sailed by before eventually we both parted and then we finished last in the race. Frustrated with the scenario I asked for redress using my previous experience from last years IOM Championship. Attached is an extract from HMS 2022, but now after asking for clarification it appears I have been lucky. JT Edited April 2, 2023 by John Taylor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downbytheriver Posted April 2, 2023 Share Posted April 2, 2023 If you were on port I can’t imagine what you were hailing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ball Posted April 2, 2023 Share Posted April 2, 2023 Hi John, My take is that you on port were the 'at fault' boat in the collision, and the other boat, on stbd could be eligible for redress, not you. The HMS rules discuss when and how to score redress, but the operative rule is R 62. 62.1 A request for redress or a protest committee’s decision to consider redress shall be based on a claim or possibility that a boat’s score or place in a race or series has been or may be, through no fault of her own, made significantly worse by . . . John John BallIOM CAN 307 (V8)In my private capacity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoRo Posted April 2, 2023 Share Posted April 2, 2023 Going back to your dont go hunting comment. If green passes the leeward mark to beat back up (port rounding) and gets outside the zone and blue sails a course to on the run to sail the wrong side of the course (but is windward boat) can this be seen as hunting and is blue to blame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoRo Posted April 2, 2023 Share Posted April 2, 2023 Another expample. If green goes around windward mark to port and continues to the spreader can blue interfere with green course and is hunting a boat going around the course properly. I have been green and want to know my rights in both please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoRo Posted April 2, 2023 Share Posted April 2, 2023 P.S. blue is beating to windward mark in second example Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ball Posted April 2, 2023 Share Posted April 2, 2023 29 minutes ago, RoRo said: Going back to your dont go hunting comment. If green passes the leeward mark to beat back up (port rounding) and gets outside the zone and blue sails a course to on the run to sail the wrong side of the course (but is windward boat) can this be seen as hunting and is blue to blame? Blue is keep clear boat - the concept of hunting would apply to the ROW boat. By 'hunting' I mean that a ROW boat alters course to impede the course of a keep clear boat There are a couple of rules that apply. Green is ROW and the other boat must keep clear - but if Green alters course, she is subject to R16.1 and must give room for the other boat to keep clear. Green can sail where ever she wants, but R23.2 says don't alter course to get in the way of a boat on another leg of the course. John John BallIOM CAN 307 (V8)In my private capacity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoRo Posted April 2, 2023 Share Posted April 2, 2023 Ok so if on diagram 2 (windward spreader) the way l see it is blue on starboard and so is green but just to clarify if green is on another part of the course blue despite being leeward cant interfere with Green? If Green where on port would this change? Sorry if l find it difficult to understand just trying to get a picture in my head l can go forward with simply. Your help is much appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ball Posted April 2, 2023 Share Posted April 2, 2023 In Dia #2, Blue has ROW and Green must keep clear - and while Blue is sailing close hauled, she is not breaking R 23.2. Dia #2 is interesting as Blue and Red need to tack to get to the windward mark, but as Green is the keep clear boat, she is not an obstruction (see definition of Obstruction), and Blue cannot hail for room to tack (R20 does not apply) so Red is in control. John John BallIOM CAN 307 (V8)In my private capacity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darin Ballington Posted April 2, 2023 Share Posted April 2, 2023 4 hours ago, John Taylor said: When you consider at the time of the incident at the lakeside. I was on the final beat to the finishing line. Despite me hailing the back marker yacht, there was no attempt to alter course by both boats. In the event we both collided and tangled with each other. The rest of the fleet sailed by before eventually we both parted and then we finished last in the race. Frustrated with the scenario I asked for redress using my previous experience from last years IOM Championship. Attached is an extract from HMS 2022, but now after asking for clarification it appears I have been lucky. JT It would be interesting to understand how those racing came to the conclusion they did. Was a hearing held? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Holbeche Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 Even if John's boat had been on starboard he would still not have been entitled to redress because the none of the conditions of 62.1 or E6.6 were met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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