Penalties issued after Peer Pressure

[John Taylor]

What are the options in this scenario.

Skipper ‘A’ claims there has been a contact between 2 boats. Therefore, Skipper ‘A’ protests. Skipper ‘B’ does not agree and continues sailing. There is no immediate call by the umpire. 

Skipper ‘A’ continues to be vocal and requests for anyone within the fleet, if they saw the incident. No one comes forward. Skipper ‘A’ continues to be vocal during the race. In the end, the Umpire calls the incident and Skipper B is required to complete a penalty.

Skipper ‘B’ still doesn’t believe there was a collision. He believes the Umpire hasn’t seen the incident either, but has reacted because of peer pressure. I was Skipper B, in my first experience, I refused the penalty and went to protest, to be disqualified. In my second experience, I did a penalty and was relegated from A-Fleet but felt disgruntled.

Your thoughts??

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by John Taylor

[John Ball]

Hi John,

cannot comment on your scenario, but here is what I think should happen.

One boat hails Protest. The incident is not seen by an observer, nor the Umpire. The other boat does not take a penalty. The umpire cannot make a decision as they have no facts. The umpire has only a short time to react - and with no facts, should hail 'No Decision'.

What you have is an 'unresolved incident' and that should go to a protest hearing.

Here is a link to the IRSA Addendum Q for Umpired Racing.

https://www.radiosailing.org/documents/administration/category/276-umpiring?download=440:irsa-rules-for-umpired-racing-2020

This document is being replaced by a new World Sailing document called 'Test Rule for Umpired Radio Sailing'.

I am not sure what its publication status is, but the essential actions are the same in each document.

John

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by John Ball
added link to supporting documents

[John949]

Unlike a court of law, there is no onus on the protester (cf the plaintiff) to prove their case.  The protest committee are required to review all the evidence presented and decide which is the more credible argument.  See this link.

https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/manuals/1?section_id=12

Don't forget that negative testimony can be used as evidence.  If n people (who were supposedly watching out for contact) didn't see anything then this would support a claim that there was no contact.

[John Ball]

While john949 describes a protest hearing, John Taylor's problem is that the umpire made a decision and awarded a penalty.

Usually regattas that use Umpires are set up as 'no appeal' against a decision of the umpire. So John has no recourse.

However, if the Umpire recognises that they made an error - they can notify the  RC under 62.1 as an error or omission. Then the RC may call a request for redress under 60.2

Then a redress hearing may consider the events and make a new determination.

John

[John Taylor]

Gents

I give thanks to you both for your comments and I will study the links above. Periodically, during regattas I do experience peer pressure from skippers and using my own experience, I thought it was a good subject to highlight.

My understanding is that if an Umpire calls during a race, then there is no argument. In my first experience, I was generally not happy with the decision. The protest hearing turned into a ‘Dressing Down’, of why I was questioning the integrity of the Umpire. Although I put my case forward, I was still banished from the protest hearing and I remember feeling very disgruntled. 

JT

Edited December 7, 2021 by John Taylor

[tiggy_cat]

"Skipper ‘A’ continues to be vocal and requests for anyone within the fleet, if they saw the incident. No one comes forward"       While discussing rules, if someone had come forward and agreed with Skipper A, would he not have laid himself open to calls of receiving outside assistance?  . Isn't that in itself a contravention of rules?

[John Ball]

No it would not be considered outside help as described in E4.2- it would have been considered as a witness to an incident.

John

[Mike Ewart]

Just to clarify, when in a number of the comments the wording Umpire has been used are we referring to an Umpired race or series, not a race or series with Observers.

If it is Umpired then surely the Umpires call is final but should not be affected by the extraneous calling of a competitor who was not involved. I would have thought if someone is considered competant enough to Umpire a race then they would not be affected and if so their competance could be justifiyably questioned

[John Taylor]

Mike,

My experiences as described above both involved Umpires and not Observers. In both cases, I was not happy with the Umpire's call and in my first case, I decided to protest. I lost my appeal which included being personally reprimanded.

Edited December 7, 2021 by John Taylor

[tiggy_cat]

On 05/12/2021 at 16:07, John Ball said:

No it would not be considered outside help as described in E4.2- it would have been considered as a witness to an incident.

John

Actually, I disagree. The sections of the rule that would deem it NOT outside help would seem to be d) and e)  ..  If skipper A was asking for others views, then e) does not apply as it states "unsolicited" help which it plainly would not be.   As for rule 4.2 d)  is the information freely available to all competitors ?  Really not sure that this is meant to include racing incidents, more course details etc. that all sailors would have been briefed on.

 

[Mike Ewart]

John

In that case it does bring into serious doubt the competance of the Umpires concerned