Here is an incident posted on youtube by Nick Lindsley from AUS which I think could happen on any race course. From the description, this went to a protest hearing that unfortunately lasted an hour without a resolution, and racing was delayed. We do not know if the PC had access to or used this video, nor do we know if it was recorded from the control area, so it may contain a perspective that was not available to the skippers so it may not have been admissible.

I think there are some ‘learning’ opportunities here, so please watch the video and try to figure what happened and which rules may apply. We are not second guessing the Protest Committee here, we are looking at the incident to learn which rules may apply so a similar incident may be avoided in the future.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HovEu7cXH5g

I’ll come back later with some comments.

John

Unfortunately I think this is more of an attitude problem than a rules problem. Until people accept that a boat clear ahead is entitled to round the mark first and stop trying to overtake by pushing in and hoping to get away with it, then incidents like this will continue to occur.

I don't understand how this issue could lead to a long and unsolved protest, situation is quite clear, no overlap between 71 and 23 entering the zone...
71 gives room to 86 then rounds the mark and is hit by 23 while doing it.... then 23 luffs because of contact with 71 and touches 190.

23 DSQ rule 18.2 twice...

Thanks John and Olivier. I agree with you, however we do not know what claims were made by the skippers at the protest hearing that could have led to a long discussion.

I think the main take-away is that if a boat is clear ahead approaching the zone, ANTICIPATE that you will have to give her mark room, so plan to be able to pass astern – and if that requires that you hail any boats around you to provide that room – do it early.

If you are the mark room boat, protest if you are hit. If you are the trailing boat and hit a boat with mark room – then take a penalty turn – that will cost less pain than being DSQ in a hearing and save everyone time.

I have attached a write up of the incident including some screen grabs, and have created a diagram that a Protest Committee may have constructed to arrive at a decision.

John

Incident at downwind mark.pdf

Edited August 26Aug 26 by John Ball
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9 hours ago, Olivier Cohen said:

I don't understand how this issue could lead to a long and unsolved protest, situation is quite clear, no overlap between 71 and 23 entering the zone...
71 gives room to 86 then rounds the mark and is hit by 23 while doing it.... then 23 luffs because of contact with 71 and touches 190.

23 DSQ rule 18.2 twice...

Hi Olivier,

I think I understand why it took so long - there were two boats directly involved, and three boats that were at least witnesses or more seriously, parties to the protest, so that takes time to hear each person.

John

3 hours ago, John Ball said:

I think the main take-away is that if a boat is clear ahead approaching the zone, ANTICIPATE that you will have to give her mark room, so plan to be able to pass astern – and if that requires that you hail any boats around you to provide that room – do it early.

And, I suspect, another takeaway is continue to (be obliged to) give room? [for how long, btw?].

It's probably a little less likely at the sharp end with the experts, but if the leading boat does a poor rounding and leaves a gap, then it's almost human nature - in the heat of the competitive moment - to be unable to not "send it".... Not correct, but we all probably see it often. (And I can't say I've never been seduced by a gap-that-isnt-quite lol)

Hi Colin

the 'how long' is easy - while mark room exists. See the definition of Mark Room and R 18.2(b).

And for your comment about a poor rounding and space being given, see WS Case 63, where you take such room 'at your own risk'.

But in this example, 71 was sailing close to the mark and there was no opening to sail into - perhaps an issue with depth perception but poor sailing non the less.

John

As boat #28 in the video .... i'm glad i chose the other buoy 😀

Video wasn't used in the PC hearing and there were multiple parties to the protest and more witnesses than boats involved.

It was interesting watching the proceedings of the PC from afar as it was conducted lakeside in the sun using a selection of shoes and thongs (the flip-flop type) were laid out on the grass in front of the PC representing the boats and buoy and each protester, protestee and witnesses all taking turns on their knees rearranging the shoes and thongs to explain their version of events.

Edited August 31Aug 31 by womble66
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Hi Womble66 - thanks for providing additional info not available before (a gate mark).

Here are my comments. These comments may help anyone on a future protest situation at a downwind mark.

The facts must establish that this is a downwind mark and possibly as part of a gate. These days, most events seem to use a downwind gate, so R 18.4 would not apply. In this scenario, R 18.4 did not apply as the boats did not need to gybe to round the mark.

Q1 ‘which boat had mark room when the first boat reached the zone’?

Q2 ‘did that boat do anything to end its mark room ie leave the zone or tack in the zone’?

Q3 ‘was the mark room boat sailing within her proper course provisions’?

Q4 ‘was the boat owing mark room herself entitled to mark room from a third boat and was that room given?’

The answers to these questions would resolve the incident in the youtube video.

Q1 – Yes, boat 71 was clear ahead at the zone and entitled to mark room from the boats astern,

Q2 – No, 71 did not leave the zone nor tack in the zone so mark room continues.

Q3 – Yes, 71 sailed directly to the mark while providing mark room to 86. As she was sailing within her mark room, 71 would be exonerated for any breaches of Part 2, or R31.

Q4 – Yes, boat 23 was owed mark room by 164. And unless evidence is presented by witnesses, it looks like that room was given. If there was evidence that 164 prevented 23 from passing astern of 71, then 23 may be exonerated and 164 would be DSQ. If 164 gave room, then 23 is DSQ.

 

John

On 26/08/2026 at 08:01, John949 said:

Unfortunately I think this is more of an attitude problem than a rules problem. Until people accept that a boat clear ahead is entitled to round the mark first and stop trying to overtake by pushing in and hoping to get away with it, then incidents like this will continue to occur.

There is a

lot of discussion that boat clear ahead has total rights in rounding the leeward mark. However there are considerble limitations on that boats rights.

Firstly the definition for markroom (a) "to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it".

Should the clear ahead boat leave navigable water between the mark and its

self any other boat is entitled to sail through that navigable water.

Further rule 14 C states that a boat shall not cause contact between a boat and an object that should be avoided. ie the leeward boat cannot luff above a proper course causing the windward boat to hit the mark.

Further again rule 16.1 states that "when a right of way boat changes course shall give the other boat room to keep clear" ie no sudden luffing to close the door.

The above points are also applicable at the starting marks.

Mike Ure

I shall be interested in John B's take on this but mine is:

In the video 71 gives mark room and then turns to sail directly to the correct side of the mark. It's hard to argue that her proper course is not to sail sirectly to the mark if she can. Anyone 'caught' in the closing gap has no rights and must keep clear, even if that means sailing the wrong side of the mark, but yes she can't luff above a direct course to the mark.

Rule 14 applies to the interloper as well and also states that the RoW does not need to respond until it is clear that the other boat is failing to keep clear. Thus the onus is on the interloper to avoid the collision. The purpose of rule 14 is to prevent serious injury / damage not to give keep clear boats an excuse when they contact another boat. Usually both boats will be disqualified if rule 14 is relevant.

Rule 16.1 Is a boat rounding a mark changing course or sailing her proper course? Over to you John B.

BTW there is no proper course before the start signal so you can luff up head to wind if you want, but yes you must give room to keep clear. Note that this doesn't mean the windward boat doesn't have to try and keep clear. Leeward is only in the wrong if it is considered IMPOSSIBLE for windward to avoid contact.

Hi John949.

Yes I agree. If room is left, a trailing boat without mark room takes it at her own risk - see WS Case 63.

When 71 alters course to sail close to the mark, she was sailing her proper course 'close to the mark' as the next leg was a beat. One rule we did not mention in this scenario, is that when 71 altered course, and may break R 16.1, she is exonerated under R 43, as she was sailing within the mark room to which she was entitled.

71 did not break R 14. When 23 broke R 18.2, she also broke R 14 as she failed to avoid 71, but gave 71 no chance to avoid her. You can only be DSQ once even if breaking several rules in a single incident.

John

Presumably, into "proper [beating] course" one can factor how high one or other boat can point relative to the other?!

Windward boat has to keep/get clear of a leeward boat which is pointing higher than the other in the 'middle' of the beat - is it different whilst rounding the leeward mark and still within the Zone?

Hi Colin,

when we were referring to proper course above, it was in the context of 71 with mark room, sailing close to the mark. When 71 altered course to follow 86 around the mark, she was on a reach, to sail close to the mark. 23 was not entitled to get between 71 and the mark and not prevent 71 from rounding the mark. 71 did not 'close the door' - there never was an opening - just 23 sailing straight on and hitting 71.

Proper course while two boats are overlapped comes up if/when R 17 applies. If a boat sailing close hauled established an overlap from astern and to leeward, she must not sail above her proper course - however if she can point higher than the windward boat, that is her proper course, and windward must stay clear, which may require windward luffing a bit or even tacking away to avoid breaking R 11.

John

Edited August 31Aug 31 by John Ball
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John,

Your insights into radio racing rules are always illuminating and helpful... The discussion means I must remind my club fellow members that a boat clear ahead entering the zone "has mark room".

Thank you

Hi Larry, and thanks for the kind comments,

Sorry if this sounds pedantic, but R 18.2 wording changed for the current RRS to remove an anomaly. Under the previous version of the RRS, the boat clear ahead gained mark room, but the new wording says essentially, 'when not overlapped, the boat that reaches the zone first' gains mark room.

The first diagram shows a 'normal' downwind mark with Yellow clear ahead and gains mark room. The second diagram is taken from my web site article on 'Tactical Roundings and Proper Course', See chapter 5 Bonus item, and shows the new wording in action - here we need to assume that the boats are sailing a higher angle that normal, say in lights winds. Here, Green is clear ahead of Yellow yet Yellow gains mark room under the new wording of 18.2, as she reaches the zone first.

John

I make no criticism or complaint at anyone - and echo the "thank you John for always giving your advice and insight". But jeez, the rules are all soooooo complicated (for someone who just loves sailing, likes competing, but isn't willing to treat any situation as Life And Death). And bearing in mind that no-one in our sport actually has any up-above viewpoint that John's diagrams brilliantly demonstrate lol

Edited September 2Sep 2 by Colin Helliwell