Suppose you are trying to leave a mark to port but misjudge it such that you both hit it and pass to starboard of it.  Obviously you need to turn back and go round the correct side of it, so that you have sailed the correct course.  But what about the penalty for actually hitting the mark?  Does the fact that you have turned through 360 degrees in order to go back and pass the right side of the mark also count as the penalty turn for hitting a mark?  I can't see anything in the rules that says it doesn't.  

If you do have to do an extra turn then it seems wrong, as the penalty for nearly getting it right is worse than the penalty for being miles out!

There is not a black and white answer to your question – it depends on the facts determined by a protest committee. There is no case or call to provide guidance, so this is my opinion.

The boat broke R 31 by hitting the mark and is required to do a penalty turn, and also still has to round the mark to comply with R 28 to sail the course.

The boat bore away, gybed, hardened up, sailed beyond the lay line and tacked to round the mark. So the boat did a gybe and a tack – but the question is did that comply with the conditions set out in R 44 which are
a)    Get clear
b)     as soon as possible
c)    Compete a gybe and a tack (in either order)
d)     promptly

If you did not meet all those conditions (answer YES to each), then you have not yet done a penalty turn.

Attached is a pdf of  a hypothetical scenario that I submitted to the Sail Canada Rules Committee on this exact scenario. The answer was that a penalty turn does not have to be a perfect circle – you are allowed to extend to have rudder control for steerage, but you must tack promptly – and that does not include an additional delay for the purpose of getting above the lay line. Also, if you had to delay your tack to avoid hitting the mark, then you did not get sufficiently clear before starting the penalty. This was submitted in 2012 and the organisation names and some rules have changed - but do not affect this example.

John

Hitting mark ISAF_CYA_protest_09-12ENG.pdf

Some people sail with their boat. Others sail with their rule book!

On 09/05/2023 at 18:11, John949 said:

Suppose you are trying to leave a mark to port but misjudge it such that you both hit it and pass to starboard of it.  Obviously you need to turn back and go round the correct side of it, so that you have sailed the correct course.  But what about the penalty for actually hitting the mark?  Does the fact that you have turned through 360 degrees in order to go back and pass the right side of the mark also count as the penalty turn for hitting a mark?  I can't see anything in the rules that says it doesn't.  

If you do have to do an extra turn then it seems wrong, as the penalty for nearly getting it right is worse than the penalty for being miles out!

Aside from the matters of asap and promptly, I'd have thought you had? You both 'unwound the piece of string' for the correct course (which I don't think prescribes any particular manoeuvres), and did a full 360 turn? (You didn't do a zig-zag: bear away, tack, bear away and tack again)

Edit: Have re-read John's comments on the timing of things, and hmmmm.... yes, good questions. I though guess you might need to delay your tack 'only...' so as to have adequate boat speed for the manoeuvre, which would therefore be promptly enough...?

Edited June 20, 20232 yr by Colin Helliwell

Another way to look at it:- When going the wrong side of the mark you are not actually rounding it, therefore contact with it would not carry a penalty. Simply unwind (which would normally involve a 360 which is not a penalty) and then round the mark as part of the course.

Sorry Chris - but  I disagree - R 31 does not say anything about rounding a mark - it just says 'shall not touch . . .'

 and then look at R 28  which requires you to sail the course ( and see definition of sail the course)

John
 

One more question: 

Do the buoys on the course marking the finish line, only become 'live' when approaching it to finish the race?

 

Edited October 23, 20241 yr by Cliff Hannam

A mark only exists when it starts or ends the leg of the course you are sailing - so the start/finish marks do not normally 'exist' while sailing the other legs.

BUT - sometimes the RC will make the start/finish a no-go area to ensure boats sailing the course do not interfere with the RC work of registering boats finishing. In that case the start/finish line becomes an obstruction. To invoke this, the RC must clearly announce it and/or make it part of the SI.

John