Hi,

I was recently windward boat, rounding a port hand windward spreader mark and the boat, to which I had given mark room, did not bear away on to its Proper Course after rounding the mark.

Please advice me if it was in breach of Rule 17,  which I believe does not just apply to running boats but anywhere, where boats become overlapped.

My understanding of the current Proper Course definition, is, the fastest course to the next mark 'in the absence of other boats'.

So rule 17 does not allow you to sail high, to get clear wind from other boats. It is the course you would sail if no other boats were present.

When a boat gives another boat mark room (water) at a windward spreader mark, I believe that the inside boat. which established its overlap within 2 boats lengths to leeward, has an obligation to immediately bear away onto their Proper Course (a run).

I believe that if the boat given mark room makes no attempt to bear away and continues to sail high then it is in breach of rule 17 and should complete a penalty turn.

Am I correct in my interpretation of rule 17?

Thankyou in advance

Hi Roger,

I cannot give you an answer about R 17 as the important information is missing. R 17 only applies if the other boat established an overlap to leeward from astern and within 2 boat lengths. So how you became overlapped is crucial to your scenario. If it applies, then YES, the leeward boat should begin to sail their proper course to the next mark after clearing the offset mark. However if R 17 does not apply, then there is no rule in effect which requires proper course, and so the leeward boat may luff you, subject to R 16.1 and you are required to keep clear under R 11.

The proper course mention in R 18 ends once mark room has been given, and you as the outside boat was required to allow the inside boat with mark room to sail her proper course to the mark.

I discuss R 17 with some examples in Chapter 4 - Hailing and other rules around the course, and from see pg 11.

https://sites.google.com/site/johnsrcsailingrulesandtactics/

John

Edited June 18, 2025Jun 18 by John Ball
spelling

Hi John,

Thank you for you insight.

In the case  I mention, we were sailing a windward leeward course.

I rounded the windward mark clear ahead, the other boat had over stood slightly,  so was reaching in and because of her higher speed gained an overlap close to leeward, after rounding.

Could you clarify what you consider the proper course of the leeward boat to be after passing the offset mark.

i.e. How high would they be permitted to sail?

The leeward gate was dead downwind some 150 meters away.

Thanks again

3 minutes ago, Roger Crates said:

Hi John,

Thank you for you insight.

In the case  I mention, we were sailing a windward leeward course.

I rounded the windward mark clear ahead, the other boat had over stood slightly,  so was reaching in and because of her higher speed gained an overlap close to leeward, after rounding.

Could you clarify what you consider the proper course of the leeward boat to be after passing the offset mark.

i.e. How high would they be permitted to sail?

The leeward gate was dead downwind some 150 meters away.

Thanks again

To clarify: windward (plus spreader) leeward course. 

Hi Roger and Colin,

I have created a diagram that I think represents your question.

As drawn, Green obtains an overlap from astern and this meets the description for R 17 to apply.

So yes, Green must bear away to her proper course to the next mark which is dead down wind as soon as she has passed the offset mark.

Green established an overlap before Yellow touched the zone, and is entitled to mark room, which was given.

John

 

 

Edited June 18, 2025Jun 18 by John Ball
added name

1 minute ago, John Ball said:

Hi Colin,

I have created a diagram that I think represents your question.

Roger's question, I just happened to be in the vicinity. (Well -  8 or so places back, as usual lol)

Hi John,

thankyou so much for your time and the schematic explanation.

That is exactly what occurred.

To clarify and avoid any confusion, could you confirm that the proper course for the green boat, is to bear away onto a run, or very close to it, after rounding mark 2

 

Hi Roger,

As R 17 apples, Green is obligated to not sail above her proper course.

Proper course is subjective, but bearing away to a downwind course of some type is reasonable. Holding on to the reach or going higher does not seem reasonable. As Leeward boat, Green's proper course is what counts - but it must be defensible in a protest hearing.

John

Hi John,

Thank you once again.

By the way your rules explanation web site is brilliant and I will forward the link to all my sailing contacts.

https://sites.google.com/site/johnsrcsailingrulesandtactics/

Roger

12 hours ago, John Ball said:

Hi Roger,

As R 17 apples, Green is obligated to not sail above her proper course.

Proper course is subjective, but bearing away to a downwind course of some type is reasonable. Holding on to the reach or going higher does not seem reasonable. As Leeward boat, Green's proper course is what counts - but it must be defensible in a protest hearing.

John

The problem with rules diagrams is that they are rarely as clear cut as drawn.

The diagram shown, which was fundamentally correct, does not show that the spreader was quite close to the shore, and the wind was gusting and swinging through 30/40 deg or so making the bear away inconsistent, boats were fanned in quite a large arc as they set up for the run.  The other element that is missing in the information is that the windward boat bore away and hit the leeward boat as part of the spreader mark incident- hence the discussion about proper course.

IMO, the 1st priority in the incident is for windward to keep clear and then protest leeward. (I'm sure that's what will happen in the future

As important though is that if it went to a hearing the windward boat would need to persuade the hearing that leeward was not sailing their proper course. It not a cut and dry that you get to the spreader mark and immediately swing left or right to go the next mark for many reasons.

Writing a procedure for rounding a spreader mark is just not that simple and as we know hearings are very unpredictable...

Happy to be corrected

 

 

  

Hi Darin,

The fact that the mark was close to a shore is irrelevant , except to say that the leeward boat did not bear away  and carried on reaching towards a shore that had a  wind shadow.

So the reaching course was definitely not that boats quickest course to the next mark, ie, its 'proper course'.

The fact that the windward boat eventually collided with the leeward boat, having been take wide of the mark, is also not relevant to the rule 17 controlled mark rounding as it was a separate incident that happened later.

I suggest that we  accept John's interpretation as correct.

"Proper course is subjective, but bearing away to a downwind course of some type is reasonable. Holding on to the reach or going higher does not seem reasonable." 

 

p.s.

As you proved on a number of occasions during that mornings racing, the quickest course to the down wind gate was generally to immediately gybe and head off shore where there was more wind