John949 Posted August 2, 2023 Posted August 2, 2023 We used a set of videos as a rules teach-in recently including this one: Thanks to this and Nigel B's scenarios, I think I understand the rules if you tack in the zone on a Port hand mark i.e. 1) You are not allowed to make a boat to windward of you sail above close hauled. 2) If you get overlapped inside, you must give mark room (even if the overlap occurs within the zone). See second part of video. When this video was made the rules applied equally to port and starboard marks (see comments on the video), but Rule 18.3 now only applies to " a mark to be left to port". So what are the rules for a starboard hand mark? Taking 1) first. The first part of 18.3 is a restriction on a right of way yacht (* 1). So if this restriction does not apply to a Starboard hand mark the presumably the tacking yacht can force the windward yacht above close hauled? (but she must allow windward room to keep clear see *1). So the tacker has more rights on a Starboard hand mark? The second part is less clear to me. 18.3 doesn't apply. 18.2 d says 18.2 b & c no longer apply if the boat entitled to mark room passes head to wind (the tacking yacht definitely had an overlap before she tacked) . So that leaves 18.2 a, e & f. 18.2 a says the outside boat must give the inside boat room - Note there is no mention of when the overlap occurs or the zone. In 18.2 e, the meaning of 'in time' is not clear to me in this situation but if it is clear that the inside boat did gain an overlap before the mark then this doesn't apply. 18.2 f says that the tacking boat must be given time to give mark room. So my conclusion is that this situation is that 2) is the same as for a Port hand mark. Is that correct? An example below. 1) Yellow enters the zone on starboard and will cross ahead of blue. 2) Yellow tacks in the zone and slows. 3) Blue gains an inside overlap. 4)Yellow does not give mark room and there is a collision. Yellow is at fault? *1 The boat that has tacked in the zone is to leeward and therefore has windward leeward rights, but must allow the windward yacht room to keep clear as she gained these rights following a tack.
John Ball Posted August 2, 2023 Posted August 2, 2023 My answer is that as drawn, Yellow is at fault for failing to give mark room to Blue under R18.2(a). As this is 'marks to stbd', 18.3 does not apply - and in the absence of 18.3, 18.2(a) applies when the boats become overlapped in the zone. I cover this on my web site https://sites.google.com/site/johnsrcsailingrulesandtactics/ See Chapter 3 Bonus - Weather Mark - the 'dreaded' Marks to Stbd and see Pg 4 John John BallIOM CAN 307 (V8)In my private capacity
John949 Posted August 3, 2023 Author Posted August 3, 2023 Thanks John, It appears 18.3 was changed to apply apply to Port hand marks. Do you know what the thinking behind this change was.
John Ball Posted August 3, 2023 Posted August 3, 2023 (edited) Hi John949 There is no reference in the study version of the current RRS for this change, so it looks like it was done in the previous version – so it has been like this for a while. https://www.sailing.org/inside-world-sailing/rules-regulations/racing-rules-of-sailing/ and scroll down to the study version. My thought is that it is easier to explain why 18.3 exists for a port rounding – and that is to discourage a late port tack (keep clear) boat from tacking in the zone. Without that phrase, 18.3 would not need to exist, and if it is removed, then the last phrase – when 18.3 applies, 18.2 does not – would not exist. The significance of that is that without that qualifier, the port tack boat would gain mark room over any overlapped windward stbd tack boats under 18.2(a). Read that last sentence again – it is significant. It is even more significant when you realize that as soon as the port tacker passes HTW, she is on stbd – so OK – R 13 applies, and then R 15 – BUT as she gains mark room, she gains EXONERATION under R 43. That would be a disaster, as the port tacker gets exonerated for tacking too close when that act of tacking gained her the exoneration. On a stbd rounding, the boats entering the zone on port are already the keep clear boats, and so the switch of rights does not exist. John Edited August 3, 2023 by John Ball fixed number error John BallIOM CAN 307 (V8)In my private capacity
Stephen B Posted August 4, 2023 Posted August 4, 2023 Why are we talking about a port hand mark, which appears to be a windward mark.? the club never sets a course with one in…. And when I suggested one, I got laughed at. I think that sailing all courses port and starboard is good, for boat control and can put boats nearer to the bank, for older members whose eyesight is not perfect any more, rather than huge distances away for a course. therefore a question… do port hand courses appear in club or other racing?
Downbytheriver Posted August 4, 2023 Posted August 4, 2023 (edited) Port hand courses are the norm - I find it extraordinary that anyone would laugh at the suggestion. The reason is blindingly obvious but for the sake of clarity - with a port hand windward mark the boat rounding it must be on starboard and therefore has right of way. Starboard hand windward marks are a nightmare. Edited August 4, 2023 by Downbytheriver
Andrew Start Posted August 4, 2023 Posted August 4, 2023 6 hours ago, Stephen B said: Why are we talking about a port hand mark, which appears to be a windward mark.? the club never sets a course with one in…. And when I suggested one, I got laughed at. I think that sailing all courses port and starboard is good, for boat control and can put boats nearer to the bank, for older members whose eyesight is not perfect any more, rather than huge distances away for a course. therefore a question… do port hand courses appear in club or other racing? we always sail with a rounding to port, never starboard
Stephen B Posted August 4, 2023 Posted August 4, 2023 But we ought to, as this is the nub of this post, it is starboard rounding?.
Andrew Start Posted August 4, 2023 Posted August 4, 2023 2 hours ago, Andrew Start said: we always sail with a rounding to port, never starboard 39 minutes ago, Stephen B said: But we ought to, as this is the nub of this post, it is starboard rounding?. Read Downbytheriver's comment above
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