Here is an incident just after a start - Green hails for Yellow to go up, and Yellow responds but hails "Protest".

Facts - before the start, Green established an overlap from astern, and gave room as ROW changed (R15), Yellow stayed clear while overlapped (R11). As the boats crossed the starting line after the signal, Green hailed for Yellow to go up and Yellow stayed clear (R11). Green gave room as she altered course (R16.1)

How do you think this would play out in the protest hearing? Which rule(s) apply, and how should the protest be decided?

John

Edited Saturday at 02:382 days by John Ball
added 16.1

My view...

Green obtained an overlap from clear astern an therefore must not sail above her proper course (Rule 17), however the is no proper course until the gun goes so yellow can luff until it does. Once the gun goes yellow must not sail above her proper course. The diagram suggests yellow's sails are flapping hence I would disqualify yellow,

Hi John,

which rule prevents Yellow from luffing above her proper course?

John

You should always read carefully what you have written before posting..... This might make more sense...

Green obtained an overlap from clear astern an therefore must not sail above her proper course (Rule 17), however the is no proper course until the gun goes so green can luff until it does. Once the gun goes green must not sail above her proper course. The diagram suggests green's sails are flapping hence I would disqualify green.

This scenario can also be used to illustrate a fundamental point that I find many people still don't quite grasp. Rule 17 is an additional rule that limits the actions of a right of way yacht - it does not 'override' or 'turn off' rule 11 (windward / leeward). If yellow had not responded to the luff and there was contact then she would still break rule 11, even though green is breaking rule 17. The four fundamental rules always apply, if you are keep clear boat then you must keep clear and protest if you think the other boat is breaking an additional rule.

A similar situation occurs when giving mark room. A boat giving mark room must keep clear even if the inside boat goes very wide. " I gave you enough room to round the mark" is not an acceptable excuse. I believe the rules give the inside boat exoneration for hitting a mark if the outside boat gives insufficient room but in Radio Sailing judgement is much harder and on several occassions I've missed the mark completely for fear of hitting the outside boat. The situation is worst if the outside boat is ahead and starts to turn across the path of the inside boat before the inside boat has reached the mark. I believe that the outside boat is not keeping clear but unless there is contact it is a tricky one to argue.

Well done John949!

Frequently on a start line we will see one boat creeping up to the line, luffing their sails and holding position and another boat will approach from astern and establish an overlap to leeward. In the diagram, we have two boats on the same tack with Yellow, clear ahead having ROW (R12). When they become overlapped, Green becomes ROW (R11), and as ROW changed, R15 applies briefly. While the overlap exists, Yellow is subject to R11 and Green must give room if she alters course R16.1. While we are familiar with these rules that normally apply as the positions change, there is another rule to keep in mind in this scenario. That rule is R 17.

The diagram shows Green establishing an overlap to leeward of Yellow from astern, and so R 17 applies. R 17 invokes ‘proper course’ to place a restriction on the course of the leeward boat, so we have to examine the definition of proper course which says that it applies EXCEPT before a boat’s starting signal.

If we apply that to the diagram, then while R 17 applies as soon as the overlap was established, there is no proper course and Green may luff Yellow up to HTW until the starting signal, which occurs at P3. As soon as the starting signal is made, Green as leeward overlapped boat under R 17 may not sail above her proper course. As this is a beat to windward, the proper course for Green would be no higher than close hauled.

After the starting signal (and even if the boats have not yet started), Green may not luff above close hauled while the overlap exists. As drawn, Green luffs up (her jib is luffing) as she crosses the start line – and to stay clear under R 11, Yellow also luffs up – and at that point hails ‘Protest’.

I think the Protest Committee decision would be to DSQ Green under R 17.

John