[The old days…. Naive question but relevant for moving forward]

Hi All,

It may be worth taking a look back over the attached thread from 2 years ago with some explination given to self certification hurdles and proposed measurerement certification.

2 years on and in the Northern District we have a total of 4 measurers qualified to sign sails, with ONE qualified to measure and certify boats. Thats 4 measurers to approximately 400 members. The South West District is not in any better shape. 

Can i suggest before laying the blame at the feet of your sailmaker, that members take the time to consider why culling over 80 measurers, many of which had been in their roles for 20-30+ years with full experience from sails through to complete boat measurement, for the sake of accreditation was a good idea and the go to option? I believe a workable solution could and should have been found with our RYA and classes that would not have left us in this present situation. 

Cheers

Brad

[Widget IOM MAST RAKE]

Hi Roger,

The Rake guide for the Widget attached in an earlier post above, takes the datum point from the floor of the cockpit.

I believe you might be referring to my Rake guide offered for my Alternative design on our website that suggests the datum be taken from the sheer line/deck edge due to home builders possibly using their own preffered decking style and datum points being inconsistent.

If you require a rigging and setup guide for the Britpop design, please drop me an email at bgrcyachting ‘at’ hotmail.com 

Cheers

Brad

[WS Submissions on App E.]

5 minutes ago, Gordon W Davies said:

WS Sailing already have rules for Umpired Radio Sailing based on the rules developed by IJs and radio sailors over the years. These rules include observers, hails of contact and one-turn voluntary/two turn umpire given penalties and are intended to change the game as little as possible.

These proposals,however, seek to modify these rules in several ways and make them the default rules for radio sailing.

Any event that does not want to use umpires and use observers will be required to write into the NoR a significant number of rule changes.

Thanks for the clarification. Hello lawlessness….

[WS Submissions on App E.]

33 minutes ago, Gordon W Davies said:

The proposals on observing/umpiring seem to be based on:

- a belief that an observer cannot be disinterested and has an obvious conflict of interest

- to extend the current situation in Croatia (a small number of regattas all umpired with no observers) to the rest of the world

- to remove the one -turn voluntary, two turn umpire given, penalty difference. This means that umpires will be empowered to penalise with out warning after contact. This despite previous experience that if penalty given by umpire is the same, most competitors will wait for the umpire call.

- allow umpires to roam freely on the bank or on the water, outside the control area.

 

I would argue that these proposals are a major game-changer. They undo over 40 years of development of rules and practices that actively involve competitors in implementing the basic principle of sportsmanship that competitors follow and enforce the rules. These proposal seek to replace not reinforce self policing.

100% in agreeance Gordon.

Probably worth a mention to anyone looking in that these changes being proposed relate to International Events any any specific Events that may be using Umpires. 

I find the push against use of observers a strange one in suggesting their use is a conflict of interest. Making an observer call with an umpire within the same race is essentially no different than that observer being on the startline in that particular heat and protesting. Do we level accustaions of conflicting interest when one competitor protests another or hails a contact between two boats in their same heat?

Having been fortunate to sail in a number of fleets in areas that use and do not use observers, I can not praise their use and inclusion highly enough over races held without. The standard of racing with observers is not only greatly improved, but so to the conduct of skippers on the course. Is it perfect or does it solve all issues? I’m afraid no system is as we see from the many rules discussions that pop up over time.

But is it better than a mostly lawless non observer system at larger events where the bully rolls on while the agrieved are looked down on for ever trying to take them to task through protest, all while an overbearing, booming voice of a PRO tries to enforce some kind of control over the pack?  More arguing and bickering on the bank and just scrappy racing. It might suit some but not my idea of an enjoyable race.
 

[WS Submissions on App E.]

Thanks Gordon for the heads up.

From the Croatian Proposal:

 RC sailing races are held close to the shoreline and complete race area is clearly visible. This makes umpiring the best choice to get as many as possible decisions made on the water and save time of hearings in favour of more racing. Umpiring system shall be simple and effective as relative boat speeds are quite high and decisions needs to be made quickly. Proposed text is coming from more than 20 years of different umpiring systems tested on various RC events keeping the focus on simplicity and efficiency.

Some interesting proposals that (not surprisingly) weren’t shared through IRSA, IRSA Class or widely through class NCAs or MNAs before being put forward.

To me without digging deep on each point, these changes represent a return to the past without giving thought to why umpired races have evolved to what is the current norm.

Im not going to suggest one system or style is perfect and another is not. Umpired racing no matter what the system, with use of competitors as observers or not, has good an bad points. What i will state though is that i feel with observers used, paired with umpires, i find there are more calls and more situations noticed. Skippers invariably have the best eyes and are an asset when used this way as observers.

I find Umpired races without have a lot more incidents missed and less consistency of rulings due to the extra pressures put on a single person over a pair.

The overriding features that i would not like to have revisted are the “Us and Them” days of Umpires versus Competitors and vice versa. When competitors observe with an umpire, an important barrier is broken down. They both work as a team for the good of a heat, the race and event. Competitors learn from their umpire in conversation and feel at ease in asking any interpretations or cases over an event. Events that have this are far better from an enjoyment factor. It is long known Umpirers are sourced from areas more cost effective to an event which can create its own issues with accusations of bias. The pairing of skippers with these Umpires removes any of this.

Why someone would want to take us back 20 plus years to the dark days of competitors acting no different to modern day footballers in seeking to get away with whatever they can and only playing to the whistle is beyond me. Less fouls noticed and inconsistent rulings may suit some, but hardly encourages fair sailing.

Any person not willing to be adjudicated on by their peers in partnership with an accredited umpire for a fairer event should give their head a wobble.

In umpired racing, the the right result and the right atmosphere are just as important as Simplicity and Efficiency.

As for Antenna lengths, i see no reason to delete this rule. Highly unlikely an older radio with this will be used but as these radios are not banned, then the rule should stay to universally protect all from that one time injury possiblity.

 

Cheers

Brad

[Spreaders]

Some interesting points Martin.

I am certainly no metallurgist, nor am i an engineer, more a pupil of the school of experience, hard knocks and weeding out what can be relevant or put in the bin.

I understand the pricipals of pairing tubes of same wall thickness and diameter to give a near identical stiffness over a given length. Smarter minds say this is so. Over experience though through a past dinghy and skiff lifetime and on to transitions of mast types in IOMs, i believe all is not that simple in practice or actual use. Age hardened mast or heat hardened or tempered? Do they bahave the same on a Cherub with all else equal in dimensions? Not at all. 18 foot skiff masts in drawn state over the equal section spending a time being heat hardened. I can tell you one had a proponency to fall down, the other was spaghetti on identical geometry setups.

i have found the differences in IOM tubes just as noticably different. Some maybe be harder than others. Some much stiffer. Same measurable OD and ID. 
the largest noticable difference in the harder more commonly used 11mm tubes is their resistance to relaxation of pre bend. I do find them naturally stiffer for the same given geometry of rig setup, certainly over a longer period. Equally, some offered as harder tubes are quite dissapointing and overly flexible. Just my take as its the lightest masts being sought.

Not disagreeing with the science, but in the same way a hulls best VPP is in real practice, not figures, i think there is always an element of experienced trial and error to find what works best.

Cheers

[Spreaders]

10 minutes ago, Stephen B said:

maybe someone will verify

What form of verification are you after Stephen?

[Spreaders]

Hi Dave, 

Given the age and chance of heavier mast tube used and quite possibly thicker foils used. it may be just fine without spreaders. The mast bending sudeways in a gust could help it balance out. 
Id suggest you try it as is, then if you find the mainsail leech is flapping around a but on that rig in a bit of wind, then take a look at some spreaders.

cheers

Brad

[Spreaders]

Hi Dave,

As nobody has chipped in i’ll add my thoughts…

The short answer is yes, spreaders are most probably required to stop your mast from being to soft with sideways bend.
But thats a broad response without knowing:

- What boat you have i.e. narrow or skinny shroud connection point at deck?

- Mast step type i.e. does your mast step on the top of the deck, in a lowered cockpit or go down through a mast tube to the hull floor?

- Mast tube type and diameter i.e. is it a groovy or round 11mm diameter mast or 12.7mm diameter of either of those types. It may even be a more modern 11mm Round tube high tensile mast tube.

- Is there a mast ram at the deck level that will support the mast latterally, preventing any sideways movement?
 

As the class has evolved, a lot more effort has been put into rig setup to get the right amount of sideways bend to suit other aspects in total design. The answer is not as simple as it may have been before, if looking for best performance.

cheers

Brad

[Refurbing old boat]

Your welcome Simon

Nothing makes me whince more than a beautiful older suit of sails permanently messed up with a marker pen, numbers drawn over seams, obnoxious pin stripes stuck around hulls…..i should stop. 

Cheers 
Brad

 

 

 

 

 

[Refurbing old boat]

Sounds like you have a great old design there Simon.

Just a little advice on your sail numbering. If im right in thinking you have sails from the same era as the boat, i imagine they will be either a matte finish film or possibly dacron?

If so, i would suggest the only option to be stick on dacron numbers that can later be removed if needed. It is only on modern films that are uncoated with a seni or full gloss appearance that stencilling on numbers is the preferred option to avoid distortion. On these sails permanent marker pen can be washed off. Not the case on the older matte films that leave an awful blotchy emulsion mess.

 

Cheers

Brad

[Centenary of the A class Championship Regatta]

Absolutely Derek a great point. Wouldn’t it be great to show just how many of those top skippers will be at Gosport with a list of Entries and designs that they will be sailing….

[Centenary of the A class Championship Regatta]

45 minutes ago, Mark90 said:

 

Phil Playle is not on the link below so not as mislead as you think
 

https://www.mya-uk.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/MYA-National-Champions-List-31-10-2021.pdf

That list needs a bit of an update Mark. Phil was the first IOM Nationals winner in the UK. I believe the event was held in Rhyl, Wales and he was sailing a Rhythm design. 
 

cheers

Brad
 

 

[Centenary of the A class Championship Regatta]

Looks like a cracking event Derek, well done to all involved. Can someone point to a link for the full list of entries?

Hope to make it down for a look. Ohh and my money is on the new breed of Stollerys, Roberts and Wyeths taking points from their elders.

Cheers

Brad

[Mast slides for a groovy carbon mast]

Hi,

No need to go with carbon rod. Easiest and perfect for the job is a length of RC plastic antenna tube. Just knife them to a length of 10-12mm long for an A Class mainsail with a strip of deck patch cut at the same width, tabbing back onto both sides of the mainsail the same distance back each side. Only needs one layer of tape otherwise the slide becomes too stiff, not allowing the sail to drop into shape in lighter winds. Put them approximately on the end of each forward seam and one evenly placed in between.

cheers

Brad

[Widget IOM MAST RAKE]

Hi All, 

Just to be clear, the rake measurement is taken from the mast datum point up from the deck, to the top of the Stem, not including the bumper. This is measurement is taken in full rigging trim under tension.

cheers

Brad

[Widget IOM MAST RAKE]

Hi Chris,

Try these to get you started. The B and C rig could use a fraction more rake if you feel the balance is a little neutral.

Cheers

Brad

Widget Mast Rakes.pdf

[2023 MYA Nationals- Keighley]

Some interesting points Janice
You are correct in suggesting I have not been to a Euro Nations event. As those in charge of it expressly suggested it was a Euro based event from its forming origins and had little to no interest in us here hosting an event, it has never been on my radar. Now some 5-6 odd years on and an event here can boost their numbers and add some credence. That’s great!

I always found it odd though that the same organising skippers travelled to our Nationals on multiple occasions held over 2 days with little fuss. Some barely lasted the full 2 days before heading home.

Any suggestion that GBR skippers that have jobs, are in school, have children in school or other family commitments that restricts their time away are having to stay 3 nights away for a 2 day race is just nonsense. It is one night or possibly 2 nights worst case.

Which brings me to a larger point. At a time where numbers and helpers are thin on the ground due to a number of reasons, not least the rise in cost of living, associated travel and any expenses that go with weekends away, why would adding extra days on to any events in this country (on a non holiday weekend) be seen as something good for any class as a whole. In this instance you would likely loose more skipper from the Monday racing than any travellers gained by adding the event in the first place. And for what? Hardly an event result that makes that series meaningful. As for any social aspects, well I’m not sure I’ve been to a  GBR event where I been to bed before closing time and I’m certain I wasn’t the only one in the house, so to speak. Those that regularly attend GBR events are well aware of the social aspects.

I am in no way against this Euro Cup. But given the current climate could I suggest getting back to basics and putting GBR skippers first by holding events they are able to attend be the priority. Fleet numbers will be no concern if events are timed well and not saddled against other crossover classes like the calendar of this year. Promote the events with enthusiasm to create a fear of missing out like they used to be and there is no problem. How these basics have been forgotten amongst the nonsense and plain excuses in recent times is mind blowing.

Or we can be less inclusive, tell the likes of Rob Vice and Peter Stollery that they will have to take their competing kids home for school and miss the final day of a rare chance of sailing an International event. Is that what an event we are inviting to our shores should be about, or are we after events solely for retirees or those out of work? If that is the case then maybe a Veterans Nationals would be better to tag the Euro Cup with?

To answer Darin. 2 days please and if the Euro Cup was to prove successful, then why not factor in their own stand alone event for 2024 which would be in a non World Championship year if that’s what worked for all skippers.

Brad

 

[2023 MYA Nationals- Keighley]

51 minutes ago, Phil Holliday said:

I am in favour of this but am not sure what Brad is saying above. He seems in favour of continental skippers coming and in favour of it counting for the European Nations Cup but against them staying for an extra days racing amongst themselves.

just to be clear, the proposal is that our M Nationals take place over a Saturday and Sunday as usual, the extra day (Monday) will only count towards the ENC with no obligation on any UK skippers to take part unless they wish to be involved in the ENC series. The club are happy to accommodate this and we would have an extra 4 to 8 participants in our Nationals as a result (educated guess), extra income for the club, additional quality skippers in the racing. 
surely this will improve an event that after the “high” of a World Championship earlier in the year could otherwise be rather flat.

If those that organise a Euro Cup are interested in promoting it as a genuine event in GBR, surely they would be looking at holding it when GBR skippers are likely to compete in it. Otherwise a diminished final entry or the winners being the best of who was left on day 3 is kind of sad. 

The GBR Nationals is a stand alone event, the pinnacle of any class each year. Why should it in any way leave itself as a possible second fiddle or a bit part of another event? All for the sake of a possible few extra entries?

My vote is of course YES to any visitor that wants to join in and compete in the GBR Nationals. By all means YES for organisers of the Euro series to use the results of the GBR Championship for their event. But a big NO to using our event because they feel our dates, that suit our skippers are not suitable to them. As I said previous, European skippers have supported our Nationals in the past with little issue. 

If the Euro cup wants to be recognised as meaningful, they should be looking to respect our skippers, our championship and hold their event entirely within ours that allows the biggest possible entry. 

Brad

[2023 MYA Nationals- Keighley]

Q1. Yes

Q2. No.
European skippers have supported our Nationals in previous years and are always welcome to do so within a format that suits our skippers. Our priorities should be in maximising every effort to get GBR skippers on the water for our events and not diluted in the hope of attracting one or two travelling skippers or cheapening our pinnacle event. Asking skippers to take another day from work to cater to a minority, instead of using a bank holiday is not best suited. By all means, the Euro GP group should be most welcome to count our event within their series.

Brad

[6m Mast suggestions]

Hi Steve,

Also worth checking the length of your backstay crane. This is a common area where an over length crane will add unnecessary bend to your mast without effectively tightening the forestay through greater leverage. In simple terms, if you transfer an imaginary line of the mast upwards to meet an imaginary continuation of the backstay, it will be much higher on one with a long crane. Any backstay crane should only just be long enough to clear the mainsail leech in the lightest of winds.

Outside of that, John is right in looking at shroud positioning on the deck relative to the mast. If they are not aft of the mast they are doing nothing to help rig tension. A look at IOM rigging shows moving shrouds down the mast, combined with them being aft on the deck helps induce a small amount of reverse prebend that when taken out with the backstay applied, adds more tension to the forestay.

I would avoid an overly bent mast with matching luff curve as when the sail is eased for a run, that luff curve has nowhere to go and sets terribly with less sail area being projected.  I would also avoid weight and windage on a class that is tender as the wind gets up due to the short fin. 
Sadly that all adds up to the stiffest tube you can find (we all know the source) for best fore and aft stiffness and then set the shroud heights and spreader lengths to get it to bend and de-power sideways to match the boats displacement.

Cheers

Brad

[Importing boats]

An interesting take Womble, best of luck with your new boat

[OCS on Black Flag start]

Both Darin and Derek are spot on regarding the use of 30.4 Black Flag.

There are 2 obvious reasons I see for this:

1. The scoring penalty for an OCS under 30.4 is ridiculously harsh under HMS in that it is the entire fleet +1. This needs to be modified to be heat +1.

For Example - A skipper breaks the line by a a small margin while keeping clean of all other boats and receives an entire fleet +1 score (that’s 77 points in a 76 boat entry)

now compare the above to the same skipper reaching falling down and bashing across the the fleet effecting the starts of many in keeping themselves from breaking the line. This skipper is not black flagged and after completing turns for infringements can continue racing the course. Any risk of a rule 2 protest can be waved away with a simple claim of losing sight of their boat.
The penalty for the above…Heat +1 (e.g. A heat 21 points in a 20 boat fleet)

Do your best, respect your fleet and get 77points, or bash off the fleet rudely and only cop 21 points in the worst case. Get it fractionally wrong a couple of times and you are the bottom of the pile. Smash and bash around and you are placed higher. Not really promoting good sailing I’m afraid.

2. 30.4 Black Flag starts promote lottery racing (given the weight of penalty)

Any skipper under a normal start knows how important getting away cleanly is. From venue to venue this can be tricky and sometimes near impossible for 20 odd skippers standing on a bank and trying to get a clear sight on their boat. It can be equally as hard for the race team to get a good look at the line. That’s just the nature of what we do that makes things so much harder than being sat on our boats with no end of transits and latest gadgetry that does it all for us with time on distance read outs and so on.

We all do our best but realise we have to get some racing in. 30.1 Around the ends is the best for this and worked for however many years previous. All can push, but know if they get it slightly wrong they are not disqualified with the above penalty. Go to 30.4 and the game changes. Those with any chance of doing well will mostly be over conservative, yet those that have little to risk and gamble will do so. There are no end of examples in events where 30.4 black flag start heats are won and placed by boats not in the event running and were happy to have a gamble.

I believe this all gets back to what we really want from an event. For me personally it’s a chance to race fairly against my fellow competitors. If that means getting say 12 good races with nobody unfairly punished at an event over 20 ‘Micky Mouse’ races then that is my preference. We all accept that some of our venues and conditions make it tough for all and that a low number of races can happen at anytime in any place. What we can avoid though, is trying to overcome that by imposing further penalties on those that travel to events in a rush to get racing done with 30.4.

Leave 30.4 for the big boat world and their officials that like to feel important

Cheers

Brad
 

 

[Importing boats]

4 hours ago, womble66 said:

Who produces IOMs in Australia……

A very good question Womble …..

There was a time not so long ago when numerous builders were supporting and filling local fleets there, as well as exporting sought after designs at or near the top of world events. As it’s all about importing there now with few if any local builders offering top end designs, can I ask what happened??

Now to the question raised by Stephen
Where the UK and Australia may have once had the lions share in design and build, there are now a small number of other manufacturers from wider fields offering top end products. If looking to buy from Europe over buying local, you can thank brexiteers for adding a few extra hurdles into your process. If looking to buy further afield (say NZ or Brazil), you can expect an import duty there of some kind.

In short there is no easy answer and some form of duty may be imposed on imports. The other option would be to buy local, but sadly that seems to be following the Australian pattern with very few top line manufacturers left here also.

Which takes us all back to the Question posed to Womble as to what happened…? 

[Marblehead and 10R Worlds 2023????]

Thanks Austin