RG65 and IRSA

[mdicks]

Hi, Dear RG65 Skipper!

IRSA's effort to impose their conceptions on the RG65-Class go ahead.

In this regard I want to recall that:

1. We are just reacting to facts that will affect our activities as an

established International Class.

2. RG65-ICA ***never*** approached NOR requested IRSA to go into this

matter nor asked them for any opinion about the goals and procedures

of RG65-ICA.

3. IRSA took that initive without any consultation or information to

RG65-ICA.

4. We (RG65-ICA) knew about this going on due to rumors collected by a

few RG65 Sailors. You can read the related complete mail exchange at

"RG65+IRSA":

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/l15mzq4vf08fomh/AACqs0Ea2X5PI7FSt0N2LmA4a?dl=0

5. Investigating I found Patricio Montero "having some ideas about was

going on", and compromised him to get Gerhard Mentges introducing

himself to me.

6. From Gerd Mentges we got a copy of the draft being worked at IRSA,

with comments from GM, and afterwards re-commented by myself. This

Draft was attached to mail sent to you on April 17, 2016.

7. Now they produce sort of reply, this time with comments by Graham

Bantock, and an additional comment by him on May 25, 2016, stating

literally:

"IRSA would not want to use the RG65 name and logo if the class

objected - some alternative name e.g. International 665 Class would

be used instead. On the other hand, if the RG65 class is happy then

the IRSA class could be the International RG65 Class"

I remark that "if the class objected - some alternative name e.g.

International 665 Class would be used instead".

This implies that if we do not agree to their intentions they just

would go ahead without consideration to our feelings.

And I also remind some of the situations lived in the past:

On Februay 07, 2016, GM got the following words mailed by me:

"We had more then one sour afair with ISAF.

E.g.: in the 90's we intended to affiliate the Class to ISAF, but

it worked out that the yearly dues resulted practically unpayable.

Our boats where considered as "Yachts", and they claimed us to pay

accordingly ...

And not long ago, while we where organizing our first World

Championship, we got a menacing (SIC) letter from an ISAF lawyer

stating that "World Championships can ONLY be organized by and

through ISAF".

Situation like theese produce unfavourable feelings ...

8. All this still without having received an answer to two very basic

questions to GM asked on Sun, 7 Feb 2016 (original in german):

"Fact is: which are the benefits of such a recognition?

What are the restrictions?

How much must be payed for it?

You know: At the end everything goes through the checkout ...

"

9. This being the present status in this matter, it URGES to define

if we would like to be REGULATED by ISAF/IRSA or if we rather prefer

to stay independent as until now, following our own uses, procedures

and Rules.

Our Rules you all know, the Rules proposed by IRSA were sent time ago

to you.

YOUR VOTE (and optional opinion) IS ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED.

*********************************************************************

Vote Options:

[1] Accept WS/IRSA tutelage by becoming an IRSA International Class.

IRSA has not explained or proposed to us what powers they would

exercise. It is possible that they will assert full power to define our

Rules and procedures, and that only IRSA affiliates will be able to

participate in non local events.

[2] Reject IRSA's pretention and stay to our own Rules (with due

updating when due), continue with our own Activities Schedule, and

act according to our established uses and procedures.

*********************************************************************

Please have a discussion with your Skippers, take decission, and

VOTE!

DEADLINE: June 26, 2016 <------------- DEADLINE!

Your vote will NOT be disclosed, but hopefully will enable to take a

consensual decission. You will get a communication BEFORE we formally

approach IRSA.

Vote to be mailed to:

Fredo Vollmer

RG65-ICA

RG65-Spain

mailto:fredo.vollmer@gmail.com

Móvil y SMS: +34 660 28 7194

********************************************************************

ALL ORIGINAL MAILINGS of this thread can be downloaded from:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/l15mzq4vf08fomh/AACqs0Ea2X5PI7FSt0N2LmA4a?dl=0

[Lester Gilbert]

The RG65 Class – from an IRSA perspective

In Q&A form

V1.1

To be posted on the IRSA Web site shortly

Q Can the RG65 class have a world championship?

Not as it exists at present.

Some time back WS delegated responsibility for the international administration of radio sailing to IRSA and it is through this affiliation that IRSA is able to grant the right to run WORLD championships in the rc international classes. WS protects the right to call a sailing event a world championship – claiming an event is one when it is not sanctioned by WS or IRSA is a breach of the WS rules and can result in competitors being excluded from legitimate sailing events.

IRSA is the international class association for the Marblehead, Ten Rater and A Classes. The International One Metre has its own independent international class association, IOMICA, that is responsible for the administration of the IOM class and which is affiliated to IRSA. All these international classes hold world championships from time to time and the events are run under the guidance of IRSA’s & IOMICA’s regulations using the well known Appendix E of the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS).

In order that the RG65 class may hold any event titled ‘world championship’ it has to have international class status given by IRSA.

Q Why is IRSA interested in the RG65 class?

IRSA’s constitutional object is to develop the sport of RC sailing throughout the world, and to support any class that is popular internationally.

The class appeals to a large number of builders because they can exploit exotic construction methods without the problems associated with larger scale building projects. Construction can be as convenient as on a kitchen table. Sail making can be accomplished in a relatively small space. The class is a ‘development’ or ‘open’ class so builders have freedom to improve performance that is deliberately blocked in ‘one design’ or ‘closed’ classes.

The boat with all its rigs will comfortably fit into a well designed pack not much bigger than a box used to transport an IOM hull. The prospect of travelling by public transport, as well as by plane without having to pay for excess baggage, is a realistic one. The restriction on the number of rigs serves to restrict cost and complexity, and the boats can be sailed in a space as small as an Olympic swimming pool. A well set up RG65 performs remarkably well, so it is easy to see why the class is popular.

Given the opportunity to hold world championships the class would inevitably attract greater number of participants and the level of competition in the class would increase enormously. It is essential that robust class rules are in place before that happens so that continued participation in the class does not become prohibitively expensive.

Q What is required for the RG65 class to become recognised by IRSA?

To gain international class status some straightforward, but important, standards have to be achieved.

• The class has to have a certain number of boats across a certain number of continents and countries.

• The class rules have to be written to a common standard, the WS Standard Class Rules (SCR) format.

Whereas the numerical requirements are met, it is clear the requirement for WS SCR format class rules is not.

Q Why is SCR format required for the class rules?

Class rules written using the WS SCR format ensure that as far as possible the language used in class rules and the measurement methods employed are harmonised across the classes. Designers, builders, sail makers and measurers can then be confident of having a common understanding of class rules.

Commonly used words like ‘boat’, ‘hull’, ‘hull appendage’ and a vast number of other similar boat part names are all very precisely defined in the Equipment Rules of Sailing (ERS) which is a stand-alone document available as a download from the WS website.

Q What else in the existing class rules might need to be changed?

An issue that would prevent the RG65 achieving international status is the tradition that the boats are measured by the owners with no independent checking. A complicating factor here is a lack of a prescribed system for measuring sail area.

Another tradition in the class, that of being able to replace the fin/ballast unit after each day’s racing, is not permitted either by the class rules or the Racing Rules of Sailing.

The current lack of restriction on the material used for the ballast means that tungsten (also known as Wolfram) and other exotic high density materials are permitted. The unwelcome cost implications of this in the long term are clear.

The concept of having only three rigs in the class is a sound principle that works well in the IOM class. Whereas the IOM class has several safeguards to keep cost down (no exotic materials in the hull, minimum hull weight, wood or aluminium spars only, one design sails) there are no such restrictions in the RG65 class and construction costs are higher than they would be otherwise. It is probably too late to introduce some of these concepts into the RG65 class – as “the horse has already bolted”. But there are some things that can easily be achieved that will help keep the class popular in the long term and restrict escalation of costs.

Q What would IRSA RG65 class rules look like?

Briefly:

• The class rules would be written in the WS SCR format using terms defined in the ERS.

• The sail measurement system would be specified.

• Ballast materials denser than lead would be prohibited.

• A draught limit would be introduced.

• Sail marks rules would be rationalised with those in Appendix E of the RRS.

• The rules for racing will be specified as the RRS.

• Changing the fin/ballast unit after each day’s racing could either be facilitated by the class rules or, alternatively, prohibited.

• Measurement and certification of boats would be by independent official measurers.

• Each national association would keep a register of officially certified boats.

Q Why does there have to be a draught limit?

The draught limit is to ensure all boats at an event can be guaranteed to be able to sail. From an IRSA point of view it is imperative that the Race Committee of an IRSA event does not find itself embarrassed because some competitors with class rule compliant boats cannot compete.

Q How will revised RG65 class rules be created?

Under the guidance of Gerd Mentges, a sub-committee of the IRSA TC has already produced a first draft of an international standardised version of the RG65 class rules. It incorporates much of what has been learned over the last two decades from the Marblehead and Ten Rater Class rules. It deals with the above points and the TC will spend some time checking and refining its content.

Q Could the RG65 owners create their own international class rules?

Perhaps, but it may take longer to arrive at a result that is satisfactory to IRSA.

Q How would revised RG65 class rules be adopted?

When it is felt the revised class rules are of sufficient quality the intention is to post them on the IRSA website. While IRSA cannot impose such rules on anybody, it is hoped the RG65 community will find they like what they see and, if they want to progress to holding the first world championship for the class, there will be a clear pathway to do so.

Q What is the pathway to a first world championship for the RG65 class?

That pathway would be:

• Use the revised class rules.

• Achieve sufficient registered boats in sufficient countries and continents.

• Apply to IRSA for International Status.

• Apply to hold a world championship.

Q Could the RG65 class run its own affairs?

IRSA would like to see the RG65 class form a class committee within the IRSA structure. Although currently organised on a regional structure of representation, IRSA is in the process of re-structuring into a class based organisation. When the RG65 class committee becomes self-sufficient, IRSA policy is that it should split off to become an independent ICA in the same way as IOMICA.

[Matt Riley]

The IRSA from an RG65 perspective.

Lester, thanks for your input, but there is another perspective on this:

Q: Has the RG65 class spread worldwide without the help of the IRSA?

A: Yes, currently spreading out from its original South American heartlands northwards and into Europe with established and growing fleets in the UK and US (both affiliated to their national authorities) much of this by word of mouth and getting boats on the water.

Q: Has the RG65 Class held successful international events without the need to use the IRSA held "World Championships" banner?

A: Yes, several times over the last few years in both South America and Europe.

Q: Does the RG65 rule need re writing?

A: Very probably but for the best results these changes should come from within the RG65 community in response to issues that occur in the building and racing on these boats.

Q: Does the RG65 class need a third party imposing restrictions on it rule set?

A: As it has been successfully in use for many years already without things like a draft restriction it is arguable how much these impositions would actually benefit the class.

Q: Should the RG65 Class be approaching the IRSA if they want these changes rather than the other way round?

A: One would have thought so, it does appear that the IRSA has decided it "wants" a 65cm class rather than the RG65 class wanting to be an IRSA class. Comments like "IRSA would not want to use the RG65 name and logo if the class objected - some alternative name e.g. International 665 Class would be used instead. On the other hand, if the RG65 class is happy then the IRSA class could be the International RG65 Class" don't help with this impression.

Q: Does the RG65 class want affiliation with the IRSA at the moment?

A: It has been decided to give the members and representatives of the current National Class Associations a vote on deciding this.

Regards

Matt

[Mike Ewart]

Bearing in mind the discussions ongoing about the M 10R and A class rules at present my recommendation would be good luck fellows go your own way, I have 2 RG65's and the only change I would want in the rules would be to stick to the standard terms as per the RRS definitions not a difficult thing to do.

Does it actually matter what the Championships are called?

Vote no to IRSA taking over the cl;ass

[Darin Ballington]

Lester,

If IRSA sees a benefit to having a smaller class under its wing - which i dont disagree with- would it not be better to put out a "statement of interest" request, giving all the current (and proposed) classes a chance to put their class forward for consideration.

These expressions of interests can then be considered and passed or rejected based on their ability or wish to comply with the IRSA ICA requirements.

If the RG65 skippers do not want to adhere to IRSA requirements but IRSA pursue the process, are you not in danger of just splitting the skippers and class into International skippers and the rest, with in all likelihood the same international skipper being "pinched" from one of the existing international classes.

Some could argue that the actions suggested are similar to the DF65, in that an existing class would be used to get into the "market" and then dumped when the new IRSA RG65 is up and running. Given that the IRSA constitutional role is to develop the sport, is it not better to do this with the skippers, not despite the skippers?

As i said, i am certainly not against IRSA or the idea of a smaller international class - particularly as someone with kids! but the process needs to be a clear and fair one if IRSA is to be truly seen as the democratic governing body of the sport.

cheers

Darin

[Catsails]

I don't normally join in on these discussions, but feel the need to this time.

I find it quite odd that IRSA would take an interest in the RG65 class. I object to their use of bullying tactics to make changes the class and its rules without being asked to by the Various Rg65 class associations themselves.

Compared to most classes under the IRSA umbrella, I see it as a relatively cheap class to sail. One of the attractions is being able to experiment with many different rigs and keels or bulb weights,and at very little cost. Having taken part in three national championships and a European championship, I see no evidence of anyone spending hundreds of pounds on a tungsten bulb, or hundreds of pounds on anything come to that.

If IRSA needs to bring down the costs in classes, then why have the changes in the Marblehead class recently. Just to be competitive at national level, my Marblehead A rig cost well over £300 pounds, and that is with myself making the sails.

I find it quite refreshing to go along to an RG65 event, produce your self certified documents and view all the different hull designs and rig types, then discuss the thinking behind them with the various owners and designers. Why should we care what the boat is made of, or how deep the keel is or what type of rig to use. Carbon fibre is a relatively cheap material these days, so why not push the envelope, and see who can build the lightest boat, that's what this class is about.

So IRSA, hands off this class, you don't understand what its all about.

If there is a vote coming up then I urge all RG65 owners to vote against IRSAs proposals.

Sorry to rant.

Nigel Brown.

oh, and I don't think many RG65 owner cares about a world championship. If they did, then they can call it something else !

[John Tushingham]

If you are a registered class member you can now vote on this at the RG65 UK Class Association website http://www.rg65.org.uk/

Your vote really counts!

[Matt Riley]

Please see the new topic with details on the UK NCA Ballot as well as the link to the voting form.

As John says, please take the time to vote as this is important for the future of the class.

[gmyacht]

Dear RG 65 Skipper, Dear Mark,

I would like to give some comments on your post concerning the actual ballot.

One initial reason for the IRSA TC action comes amongst others from the interest of German DSV (WS member) to have a class rule according to IRSA standards for RG65. Such rules exist for the other classes IOM, M and 10 Rater which are integrated in the RC-Yachting organization of DSV.

From the beginning it was the plan of the IRSA TC to involve the RG 65 ICA via Fredo Vollmer, its chairman. Immediately after finishing of a first draft I contacted Fredo.

Gerd wrote on 160204 : For a first discussion within the TC I made a draft of the rule oriented on the formal standards of IRSA /WS. Within the TC the discussion has started. However all TC members attach great importance on the participation of the international RG community.

Fredo wrote on 160204 : This action we/I do appreciate very much. Thank you! And of course you can count with my cooperation!

Within the following months we exchanged comments on the drafted rules.

Actually Fredo informed me that he is waiting for further comments from the ICA up to the 19th of June.

I hope that the very good discussion on the drafted rule will proceed. The contact with Fredo was very kind and respectful.

I am convinced that it is possible to bring nearly all interest of the skippers together, those who want to sail RG65 world championships and those who want to sail their local events.

I beg you not to close the door. Perhaps there is something wonderful behind ! 

Gerd

(Gerd Mentges GER 01)

PS : Answers concerning the open questions :

Advantages:

The most important advantage is that you will be a member of the global community of sailors who organizes everything for large and small RC-yachts.

The regulations are designed in a way that uniform conditions exist throughout the world and this provides racing on a uniform and well known basis.

It's always good when there is only one organization for a sport. All necessary regulations as Racing rules of Sailing, Heat Management System, Equipment Rules od Sailing or the standard of measurement rules are the same one and there are institutional committees responsible for the development of this areas.

Today it is sometimes difficult to find people who are willing to work as an official. One organization as IRSA supports this task.

In the real world you sometimes have disputes on the right way to choose. It is more easy to solve such problems if all participants of such a discussion have a bracket which holds the things together. A good settled organization can absorb situations where somebody quits his job, a situation which we all know very well.

In Germany we see that the organization with IRSA and DSV (national authority or DMN) makes it easier to find regatta areas. Lakes with the infrastructure of a "big" sailing club.

Restrictions:

Most of the restrictions are not caused by IRSA but by the need to have regulations for the exercise of our sport. There are Racing Rules of Sailing, Measurement Rules guidelines for the conduct of international championships and so on. Many of these rules or better parts of them the “normal” sailor sees as unnecessary. However my experience shows that if you omit something it will last only few years and you have them again. One has to recognize that the current rules have a development history and there are mainly good reasons why they exist.

One example of a restriction. What is to do if you have 200 sailors which are interested in attending a RG World Championship. Impossible ? I say no, this class is a wonderful class with many advantages and can spread furthermore. IRSA has developed a solution for such a situation. Writing this I see that this is no restriction to my understanding, it is a benfit.

It is a little bit difficult for me to find restrictions. Perhaps on the national basis, which is in fact not the field of IRSA. Especially for the interests of some parts of the RG65 community the national authority has to find solutions to avoid restrictions. As one part of my heart is for RG65 – the other for 10 rater  - I worked in 2015 for a solution for the RG65 community in Germany to feel well under the umbrella of DSV.

This solution brought the RG community to 80 % pro DSV coming from 80 % against. The solution written in German language you can find at the dropbox mentioned above by Mark. Perhaps I can find some time to translate it. Three examples from that solution : Only for National Championships your need a measurement certificate. For so called “friendship sailing regattas” and especially for RG 65 sailor also for “ranking sailing regattas” you must not be a member of DSV. Touching marks is allowed at RG 65 regattas. I mention this point under restrictions but it is more a description how to solve restrictions.

Perhaps new measurement forms, currently under development together with RG65 ICA, could be seen as a restriction. Preparing the measurement forms by yourself I see as normal way. The task of an official measurer is to control it. With possible IRSA measurement forms each sailor has only to fill in some measurements. You have not to consider, which way of measurement you use whether triangle or trapezoidal rule etc. . There will be an excel spreadsheet which does any calculation for you if you have excel available. Is that a really a restriction ?

Costs:

IRSA currently does not collect any fee. Only continental or world championships need an entry fee based on the calculation of the local organizers.

(Please excuse bad English, I did my very best)

[Matt Riley]

Gerd, thank you for your comments.

Unfortunately, unlike your experience in Germany, I don't think there is significant call in the UK for the class rules to be changed to meet the IRSA standards. This was not a requirement for affiliation to the MYA nor has it stopped the development of the class.

Can I just remind people that it was Fredo who asked for this ballot even if he may initially have been supportive of the IRSAs plans. The main points of contention appear to be:

1) Changes to the basic rule set that restrict the open development nature of the class.

2) Comments for the IRSA TC along the lines of "there will be a 65cm International class whether the RG65 ICA want it or not".

The ballot of UK RG65 NCA members currently stands at

Option 1 - 1 Vote

Option 2 - 47 Votes

For a US/international take on this issue (both the US and Chilean NCAs are also holding ballots) please look at this thread on RCGroups http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2673977

Please vote if you have not already and and please make anybody you think may be eligible aware.

Comments received with the UK votes so far are attached below

---

Perhaps when IRSA are more diplomatic and approach us properly then a proper discussion can start. This would make more sense than them saying join us or else! Even at this stage it is hard to see what they can offer us. We can still hold international meetings if that's what members want.

---

Down with IRSA, miserable bunch that they are! Long live the RG65 as we know it!!

---

It is for the RG65 Class to decide on it future, not any other association or body to decide there future without consent.

---

I object to anyone other than the invested owners (of any class) deciding or implementing change. I don't see most of the proposed changes as bad, but without consultation they can not be imposed without some open dialogue with owners.

I believe that under the right conditions (as with IOMICA) that the RG65 would grow through joining IRSA and be seen as a class in its own right rather than a 'novelty' by many. International RG65 events in recent years have not been well supported and there seems little to no structure within the International and National associations. The class has allowed itself to be used for commercial purposes, only for many new owners to have split off to a splinter class and not return to RG65 racing knowing they are not on a level playing field, despite what was told. This split has hurt and reduced what was an emerging class here in the UK after initial growth to a state of treading water on both fronts.

In short the RG65 class needs to stand up for itself and tell IRSA no to being overrun, but get its house in order if it wants to be a stand alone class and grow to more than a bit of fun on the side when we are all not racing our other boats. If we don't then IRSA will be its best form of survival, longevity and avenue for growth outside of the small pockets of nations it is currently in.

If we want to go it alone, then there is a lot of work to be done to ensure those that step in and out won't dump it the minute the next fad comes along...

---

This looks like an uncalled for and unnecessary land grab on a successful sailing authority by World Sailing/IRSA.

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I would support the RG65 becoming and IRSA International Class provided it was in conjunction with and input from the current RG65 Class Association skippers.

---

If we want to be a truly recognised International class then I believe that we have to line up alongside the other International classes and come under IRSA guidance. Bringing the RG65 rules format into line with other classes I see as a totally logical and worthwhile move whilst proper measurement procedures can only be an advantage to the class and remove any possibility of errors in measurement causing embarrassment (or worse) at major events.

---

This is Hobson choice for me really so I vote for the Devil I know! Particularly in light of their recent high handedness or IRSA with regard to the A, Marblehead and 10 Rater classes.

There is a third option not given here which would be to maintain a dialogue with IRSA and try to influence the rule manufacture process within IRSA although ultimately this might not have any desired effect.

Thank god IRSA hasn't turned it's attention to the Footy Class!

---

Pay fees for no benefits - no thanks.

---

I object to IRSA hijacking the RG65 class in what appears to be a simple case of empire building. This class has worked well for many years as it is. If it's not broken why do they think it needs fixing.

[Val Provoost]

I’ll hold my hand up straight away. I have an RG65,waiting for me to make a rig or three for it and,no, I am not a member of the class – yet.

I read the various forum posts re the current situation with IRSA and see your reactions. Let me then add my contribution. I am a measurer of full sized boats, certified by the RYA and have been one since 1965. I have worked with several classes as either a Chief measurer, an advisor or have represented classes at the (then) IYRU annual conference to present our rule changes for ratification.

If you want to be able to keep control of your rules and the future well being of the class, you need to create an international class association, as IOM have done with IOMICA. That way you deal with your rules yourselves and ask IRSA only for ratification.

As to the format of the rules, joining the other classes in the standard format is a good idea because then manufacturers, measurers, and owners will be on familiar ground, which always helps to minimise mistakes and misunderstandings. Daunting as it looks, it is pretty straightforward and you can add or remove to suit your class’s requirements so long as you follow the layout.

I think IRSA’s heavy handed approach is intended to spur you into action to form an ICA and I think you should do so. Then the balance of power shifts to you. Good luck and above all, enjoy. If you don’t why the hell are we doing it at all?

[John Ball]

I have been thinking about this question and have some thoughts.

First, the IRSA needs the RG65 more than the RG65 needs the IRSA. The IRSA is responsible for the four International classes. However the A Class is too big and heavy for transportation around the world for International World Championship Regattas and has already been downgraded to Historical status. The 10R is also very large for transport. Both these two classes and the M are great for Europe and for Continental Championship regattas where you can drive to the event and transport the boat and rigs in your car. Australia and North America are huge and the driving distances are so great that they are unlikely to see a large support. The IOM is small enough and (with some difficulty and risk) rig boxes may be taken on a plane, but are usually FedEx’ed to and from a long distance regatta.

The only really active International class over the last 15 years has been the IOM Class. It is great that the M is again hosting a World Championship.

So the IRSA needs a new ‘portable’ class that may be easily transported by air.

The RG65 Class has some problems. I could not find whether or not is has been ‘legally’ constituted as a Not-for-Profit organization in any jurisdiction. Nor could I find a Constitution and Bylaws to cover Executive Officers and Directors, or how to nominate such officers, or how to propose class rule changes or how to vote. If my suspicions are correct, then the RG65 is not yet a real ICA, just an idea. The English version of the Class rules have some wording problems – eg use of SHOULD when SHALL is more appropriate. SO there is room for improvement.

If the RG65 ICA votes No to joining the IRSA at the present time, as seems likely from the feedback, then to me it would be unconscionable for the IRSA to go form its own 665 class, as has been suggested on this forum. However if the IRSA goes ahead with that action, then the MYA has a new problem as I understand that it has a rule that the International Classes must be supported – and that could mean that the UK RG65 class will be forced to convert to the IRSA new 665 Class.

John

[Matt Riley]

Thank you to all who took the time to take part.

The final result is:

Option 1 - 5 Votes

Option 2 - 122 Votes

This will be passed on to the RG65 ICA so they can make our position known to the IRSA.

More comments received at attached below.

I object to IRSA hijacking the RG65 class in what appears to be a simple case of empire building. This class has worked well for many years as it is. If it's not broken why do they think it needs fixing.

Whilst I don't agree with the IRSA imposing a new set of rules on the class without consultation (allegedly) I do feel that adopting the class would be a good way to go in the future. We don't have a strong class in this country, the nationals were propped up by a strong foreign entry and for a good, cheap kitchen table homebuild class I would be asking why this class is stagnant or even declining in this country. The proposed changes to the class rules are quit sensible and would have little effect to the class or scope of development. By becoming affiliated the class would not be obliged to hold World championships the racing format could still be as the owners want similar to the IOM's where we have both European and world champs as well as international competitions like the Malta open.

My vote is on the basis of no prior communication with those affected.

The proposal may well be good in the long run, but our NCA should have been consulted right at the beginning. Also, before we are to vote 'yes', we need to have had the negotiation on what this means.

We're doing fine as we are!

Who requested IRSA intervention ? Re. "World & championship". Does the IRSA own the copyright. If not , why can't the R. G. 65 call an event a "World Championship ? If the IRSA wishes to take an interest & I am sure if they ask politely they will be allowed to spectate. Should the R.G. 65 Association wish to avail themselves of IRSA expertise , the IRSA may, following invitation, wish to tender for the task.No doubt the R G Association will wish to set the parameters.

The RG65 class has always appealed because of its relative simplicity, flexibility and low cost - particularly for newcomers. It allows you to develop and progress within the hobby as experience is gained in a less formal and friendly environment. Long may it remain this way!

Don't get sucked in by them and keep it as is, there is nothing against calling the world champs "Global Champs" or World Series

I don't like interference by others when not invited . But open minded if IRSA can be brought onboard to represent us when they are told and accept present adopted rules already in place , I'm concerned class will loose present control to anonymous body .

I dont think we have anything to gain from joining WS/IRSA rules.

Why change a good thing that has been going for a number of years !!!!!!

Happy with current rules and representation, thanks.

I'm not against being an international class, but the proposed restrictions are too much

Can't vote for ISRA when the Technical Team Chairman has such conflicts of interest. Also the way the proposed rules for the A, 10R and M classes have been put together with whats looks like no input from the skippers or NCA's that actually sail the boats. Keep away from ISRA until they start to talk and listen to the skippers that sail the varying classes.

Absolutely horrid behaviour from the IRSA.

Although the IRSA has a high ended attitude and it could have been handled better, some of the proposals like proper sail measurement have been a concern of mine right from the outset of the class in the UK, and is why I'm not active in other than club competitions. The way in which the UK manages their affairs has also been a problem in the past, as you will recall! Better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

At present I sail a DF 65 which has different rules to the RG 65. Due to this difference there is an argument that DF 65s would have to be excluded from an International Standard. Added to this DF 65s would not be competitive at RG 65 international events.

I have come to sailing in the last year, previously from Full size Gliding and model gliding competition. RG65 is development class, and one I can afford to play in. (The IOM class is an expensive rip off, and I have already sold mine). Tell IRSA, we have a set of rules, if they want to play RG65 then use ours. Should RG65 be taken over and IRSA rules become too onerous, then some one will start RG66 development class!....where does it stop....

If the position described in your letter is a fair summation of what had been going on then any vote against 'rolling over' should be accompanied by a protest directly to this controlling body. The actions they appear to have taken are arrogant, presumptuous and counter productive. Consider the position of a club skipper who has just completed an RG65 scrupulously in accord with all the measurements he has been given. Consider his reaction when he is told the craft he has spent moths building is out of class. His response will undoubtedly be of the 'get stuffed' variety" and he will carry on sailing regardless. Not an unfamiliar situation when it comes to the uneasy relationship between people who want to enjoy a hobby and an over-officious elite.