An opinion would be gratefully received....

[Cliff Hannam]

Whilst running directly down wind to the leeward mark, in first place leading an adversary a few feet behind.  (Possibly trying to block the leaders wind)
Both were goosewinging (wing on wing), the leader on port the second boat on starboard. 
The trailing (starboard) boat was obviously the first to catch a following gust, which accelerated him into the stern of the leading boat.
Trying to gain an advantage by being on the inside approaching the leeward mark, the contact was actually made by first inch or so of the starboard bow of the the overtaking boat, to the port side of the leading boats transom.

A protest was immediately called by the skipper attempting the overtake, claiming that leader should have moved out of the way because HE was on starboard gybe.
Stating that being on starboard overrules everything in all circumstances.
This was countered by the leader (the lesser experienced of the two), claiming the fact that the boat attempting the overtake is the one that should keep clear and not ram his stern.

So...who was correct?

I'm sure John Ball and many other knowledgeable people will be able to advise.   TIA

[John Ball]

Interesting question!

I would summarise the facts from your post as follows and have attached a diagram.

Red on port and Green on stbd were running downwind, with Green close astern. The boats had not reached the zone on the next mark. During a gust, Green closed the gap, and her port bow became overlapped with Red’s stbd quarter by about an inch. There was contact. Stbd immediately hailed ‘Protest’. There was no damage.

There are several rules and definitions to consider: the definitions of Room and Keep Clear and R10, R 14, R 15, and R 16.1.

R11 and R 12 do not apply as the boats were on opposite tacks (gybes). As the boats had not yet reached the zone, R 18 did not apply.

Conclusion and rules that apply.

Red was required to keep clear while Green was astern and once they became overlapped under R 10.

Green did not break R 15 as there was no change in ROW and R 10 applied through the incident.

Green did not break R 16.1 as she did not change course – note that a change in speed is not considered a change in course.

When the overlap was created, Red did not have sufficient room to keep clear, but her obligation to keep clear began earlier, while Green was astern.

Green broke R 14, but if the incident happened quickly, due to the gust, it may not have been reasonably possible for Green to avoid Red.

My take is that Red, on port is dsq under R10.

What is more problematic, is whether or not to also dsq Green, on stbd, under R14 for not avoiding contact. As there was a gust and it happened quickly, we may conclude that is was not reasonably possible for Green to avoid the contact, and so Green did not break R 14.

John

 

[John949]

The moral of this tale is that if you are on port and someone is catching you from behind on starboard, then gybing onto starboard would be a smart move.  On the same tack green would have to keep clear under rule 12.  If green gains an overlap to leeward, then she would have to give red room to keep clear under rule 15.

[Cliff Hannam]

Thank you both for your prompt replies!  I now understand the the rules that apply in this situation.

Often the rules are all very clear and easy when racing full size.
Not so straightforward however when sailing fast moving models remotely, from a distance, when incidents occur in a  split second....
 

 

[John949]

There is an argument that Radio Sailing needs to investigate more specific rules as certain things (like judging overlaps when sailing directly away from the control area) are almost impossible at any distance.   The chances of a top down approach working are pretty slim given the bureaucracy and inertia involved.  Perhaps clubs could experiment with local rules and hopefully drive any good ideas from the bottom up.

[Guzzilazz]

John,

Thank you for your rapid analysis and in depth comments on the rules here.  Whatever the subject, you are happy and willing to try to spread your (obvious) knowledge. Personally, I find the insights invaluable. 

[Stephen B]

Can we spin this on further, if I was the leading boat(unlikely) and had gybed onto the same starboard tack, then does it become a windward boat staying clear?

and where does the rule about avoiding a collision come into play

[John949]

My view is:

if you gybe before green gains an overlap then green must keep clear under rule 12.  If green then overlaps you to leeward then you must keep clear under rule 11, however green must give you room to keep clear under rule 15 e.g. if you were to hit green because your stern swung into them as you turned away, then green hasn't given you enough space.  If green overlaps you to windward then green becomes keep clear boat and you can luff them if you wish.

If you gybe after green has gained an overlap then; if green is to leeward of you then you are keep clear boat throughout and must avoid green, however green cannot sail above their proper course once they become overlapped rule 17.  If green is to windward of you then green becomes keep clear boat but you must give green room to keep clear under rule 15 (you have gained right of way by gybing).  Although you must give green room to respond, you can still luff them if you choose to as they are the overtaking boat (assuming nobody is within the zone).  I think that's right but maybe John B could confirm.

Avoiding collisions is tricky.  You cannot make no attempt to avoid a right of way boat and them claim they should have avoided you under rule 14.  Basically once you are convinced that the give way boat is not going to avoid you then you should do everything you can to avoid / minimise the collision.  This is usually one for jury.  If a serious collision occurs the give way boat is likely to be disqualified and the right of way boat might be.

[John Ball]

Hi John949

Mostly I agree with your comments above, except that your reference to R 17 belongs with the first paragraph - where the lead boat gybed before the overlap and the overlap was to leeward.  As the overlap was established from astern and to leeward and the boats were on the same tack(gybe), , R 17 applies to the leeward boat.

However in your second paragraph, while the overlap was established, from astern, the boats were still on opposite tacks(gybes), so R 17 does not apply.

For R 17 to apply, the boats must already be on the same tack(gybe) when the overlap is established from astern .

Below is a diagram for your paragraph 2 - where overlap is established at P2 and the gybe happens between P2 and P3 and after the overlap is established.

John

Edited January 22 by John Ball
added diagram and R 17 comment

[Cliff Hannam]

Oh dear John B,  I'm sorry my original post has created you so much work! 

I always find your very comprehensive explanations extremely helpful and the effort you put into them is very much appreciated.
 

[John Ball]

Thanks Cliff for the kinds words - the rules can get tricky during 'transitions' - where the situation changes and the rules that apply also may change quickly. So the really important message is in the third post down from the top (from john949). Understanding what may happen leads to the concept of 'tactics' - in this case a defensive one, and how to use the rules to your advantage - and as John949 said - if you are running on port and a boat behind is on stbd, it is best to gybe as that puts you in control as they become the 'keep clear' boat and if the positions change, the onus and restrictions mainly apply to them.

John

[Gordon W Davies]

John 949 wrote: There is an argument that Radio Sailing needs to investigate more specific rules as certain things (like judging overlaps when sailing directly away from the control area) are almost impossible at any distance.   The chances of a top down approach working are pretty slim given the bureaucracy and inertia involved.  Perhaps clubs could experiment with local rules and hopefully drive any good ideas from the bottom up.

I presume that John is referring to the rules that apply between boats. These rules are found in Part 2 of the Racing Rules of Sailing. These rules are not rules that can be changed easily.

The RYA prescribes that:

86.3 Rule Changes
An organizing authority wishing to develop or test alternative racing rules, other than test rules approved by World Sailing, shall obtain prior approval from the RYA. An application form is available from the RYA. The notice of race shall include the approved alternative rules. The organizing authority shall promptly report the results of the development or test to the RYA.

Any club, class or the MYA could ask for such approval for events in which they are part of the OA. The question is which rules to change?