Racing rules.

[Booleroo]

We are having lively discussions at the moment at our sailing club regarding some specific rules regarding radio sailing.

We now have a copy of the 2025-2028 new racing rules. 

1 The contention at the moment is what costitutes a turn after hitting a mark or another boat etc. ie One gybe and one tack ie 270 deg approx or a full 360 degrees.

2 if a competitor take out another boat does the infringing boat have to extend the number of turns so as not to take advantage of him hitting the other boat. 

This needs clarifying by the powers that be so we can move forward.

Thankyou for your help, a clear indication of the rules will stop a lot of unneeded and maybe slightly vocal discussions.

 

[John Ball]

My answer to Q1 is No - the penalty is completed after one tack and one gybe - that could be as little as 180 to 270 degrees.

Once the penalty is complete, you are no longer subject to 21.2 (keep clear while taking penalty) and are racing again, but as you alter course to head to the next mark, you may become subject to R 15 or 16.1 and have to give room for another boat to stay clear.

For Radio Sailing Appendix E4.3 modifies R 44.1 to one turn.

Q2. If the infringed boat hits others, then you are likely into a 'significant advantage' situation, and multiple turns would be appropriate until the advantage is gone.

I have a chapter  - Chapter 9 The Penalty Turn on my web site  https://sites.google.com/site/johnsrcsailingrulesandtactics/

I have already drafted updates for the RRS 2025 - 2028 but have not yet added them to the web site (will replace all chapters in December). Here is a draft copy attached.

John

Penalty Turns 2025-2028 draft.pdf

Edited October 30 by John Ball
added Appendix E4.3 and 21.2

[Colin Helliwell]

1 hour ago, John Ball said:

....

Q2. If the infringed boat hits others, then you are likely into a 'significant advantage' situation, and multiple turns would be appropriate until the advantage is gone.

....

 

Short of some F1-style fiasco, how does 'significant advantage' get defined?

I recall the (excellent) coverage of IOM Worlds showed a fair bit of top mark carnage where an innocent got a secondary/tertiary clouting - knocked head to wind and/or onto the mark themselves, and lost several places recovering/atoning, whilst the original infringer had taken their turn and continued merrily on?

[John Ball]

Read the WS Call Book for Radio Sailing , Call B2, especially the answer to question 2, and also see Call P4.

R 44 includes 'significant advantage' but E4.3(b) just refers to 'advantage'.

John

Edited October 30 by John Ball
added ref to E4.3(b)

[Guzzilazz]

Unfortunately no 2025 Call book yet...

[Booleroo]

so to sum up, we are trying to make the rules so new sailors who have never sailed before understand the complex rules and terminology.

So if we say "a completed turn involves 2 left or two right turns that are greater than 90 deg each???

Would this cover the penalty turn situation?

Is there any way of more easily determining what tack you are on when you are 100+ meters away.

Our sailing club members have an age range of 55 to 93, many now in there 80's so we have to cater for eyesight and reactions not as it was. 

[Booleroo]

the 2025-2028 rules of sailing was published a few days ago, which I now have the latest copy.

The companion guide will be next week. which we are now going to give to all the new sailors who join.

We need a simple set of basic rules done to get people sailing without all the if, buts, and maybe's, to get people started.

Can you help me John Ball to do this, or provide me with something workable for people who want to sail but have never seen model boat before??

[John Ball]

For a 'simplified' version of the RRS, see my web site https://sites.google.com/site/johnsrcsailingrulesandtactics/

and check out the Chapter 1 Bonus item ' Simplified racing rules for beginners'. This is a minimal set of 'guidelines' to get started and avoid collisions.

I also suggest reading Chapter 1. The definitions as it covers the major sailing terms like port/stbd, overlap/clear ahead, windward/leeward.

John

[Colin Helliwell]

On 31/10/2024 at 13:32, John Ball said:

and check out the Chapter 1 Bonus item ' Simplified racing rules for beginners'.

"Simplified manners from pros towards beginners" can also sometimes be useful.....

[Gordon W Davies]

On 31/10/2024 at 09:17, Guzzilazz said:

Unfortunately no 2025 Call book yet...

the current Call Book applies. There may be some changes.

[Guzzilazz]

The Rule 18 changes will need more clarification, hence my comment...

[Gordon W Davies]

On 31/10/2024 at 09:47, Booleroo said:

so to sum up, we are trying to make the rules so new sailors who have never sailed before understand the complex rules and terminology.

So if we say "a completed turn involves 2 left or two right turns that are greater than 90 deg each???

Would this cover the penalty turn situation?

Is there any way of more easily determining what tack you are on when you are 100+ meters away.

Our sailing club members have an age range of 55 to 93, many now in there 80's so we have to cater for eyesight and reactions not as it was. 

1. Why not say - A One Turn Penalty is a tack and a gybe or a gybe and a tack. A 2 Turn Penalty is two one turn penalties in the same direction.

2. One of the best way to put people off radio sailing, and to make rule observance very difficult is setting courses too far away from the control area. If competitors cannot read sail numbers easily then the boats are too far away. Using a golf range finder we have found that most sailors cannot read sail numbers beyond a little over 70 metres.

 

On 30/10/2024 at 15:25, Colin Helliwell said:

Short of some F1-style fiasco, how does 'significant advantage' get defined?

I recall the (excellent) coverage of IOM Worlds showed a fair bit of top mark carnage where an innocent got a secondary/tertiary clouting - knocked head to wind and/or onto the mark themselves, and lost several places recovering/atoning, whilst the original infringer had taken their turn and continued merrily on?

RRS E4.3 changes RRS 44.1 Taking a penalty. One change is that the word significant is deleted. If a boat has gained an advantage despite taking a penalty then she should take more penalties until she no longer has an advantage. An advantage is defined as having taken one or more one-turn penalties a boat has gained by her breach a place or places, ir has not lost a place or places that she would have done if she had not broken a rule. An advantage is measured relative to the whole fleet.  Call B2 gives an example.

 

[Gordon W Davies]

8 minutes ago, Guzzilazz said:

The Rule 18 changes will need more clarification, hence my comment...

The changes are more a shuffling of the rules that a rewrite. There is a change to RRS 18.3 about tacking in the zone, which applies when both boats tack in the zone.

[Booleroo]

We sail in an area with trees down each side, the wind can be literally all over the place, much of the time you cannot do a tack or a gybe as it would be impossible to tell which was which.

 

Would a good solution then be 2 port turns or two starboard ones??? of 90Deg

Also there has been so discussion at the club as we have always done a 360 deg for a turn, if its now down to 180-270 deg that would probably be much more difficult to judge

 

[John Ball]

The number of degrees for a penalty is irrelevant. A penalty is one tack and one gybe (in either order) in the same direction. It is that simple.

John