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There is an item in the MYA Q & A which may shed some light on these issues as follows:

The system adopted by the Royal Yachting Association (RYA, UK Member National Authority of World Sailing) is that in order to become appointed as an official measurer as defined in the Equipment Rules of Sailing (ERS), a candidate attends and passes the RYA’s course on sail measurement. At this point he/she is an official measurer known as a Sail Measurer and may certify the sails of any class that uses the Standard Class Rules format and terminology. There is no obligation to do so; it is a permission.

The RYA’s policy is that classes are responsible for training and appointing their own class measurers and this naturally applies to the MYA and its classes. As the class rules of the 36*, IOM, M, 10R, 6M and A Class all require boats and equipment to be certified by an official measurer, it follows that our class measurers shall be appointed as Sail Measurers. This requirement will not apply until end of 2022 at the earliest and quite likely not until the end of 2024. Relevant costs for initial training and qualification may be claimed from the MYA. Ongoing costs may be covered by the MYA, clubs, COGs, measurer fees – TBA.

*   The current (March 2022) 36 Class rules require an official measurer to be used. The proposed draft class rule with the Class Captain has removed this requirement as sails are not part of certification.

Also the page on How to become a measurer says:

Applicants to become a Sail Measurer will need to take and pass the RYA Sail Measurer course. These are one day sessions run at regular intervals at various locations around the UK. Costs for the course fees, travelling, and RYA membership for the first year will may be claimed from the MYA funds. Interested parties should contact the MYA Technical Officer for further information.

Once appointed as a Sail Measurer they may apply to become a MYA Class Measurer. This will entail passing general and class specific training demonstrating satisfactory ability to the Class & MYA.

Current MYA measurers retain their appointment until the end of 2022 but will need to re-train, as above, if they wish to become an Official Measurer.

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Can someone explain to me the value of a Ten Rater Class measurer having to sit through an RYA instructed sail course? Ten Rater sails are measured on a grid and spreadsheet with zero relevance to practices within the equipment rules of sailing for sail measurement.

Now can I ask what full size RYA Classes allow within class rules to measure the sails whilst attached to a spar? Sure some classes do have spar measurement points(black bands) that a set sail shall fall within, but none I know of are measured set on the spar. Both the IOM and International Marblehead classes allow sails to be measured on a spar. Accurately finding and marking sail girth points requires a skill and knowledge set that will not be taught from an RYA course other than a traditional way not relevant to the class rule set. To go further, battens and how they are defined within any IOM sail are an override of an ERS system, with further irrelevance to measurement training.

Our training for measurers should be done in house, with accurate training relevant to each particular class, with any MYA monies spent kept within our sport to cover such. This insistence on measurers having to be retrained by the RYA on sail measurement, at an increased cost to the measurer payable each year is crazy useless added expense. And for what? A very small percentage of the MYA membership who could really care…

Maybe important issues such as promotion of classes and events as a start would be more beneficial to the sports health over erecting unnecessary hurdles for a minority, but felt by the majority.

Big picture anyone? 

Brad

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The movement towards " approval" rather than capability and skill continues.

In dinghy sailing, the move is that all Instructors and Coaches are RYA trained and approved. On a race training course for example, the keen club sailor who had time to go on the RYA approval is in charge whilst the Class superstar and expert can only train in a support role because they were too busy making sails or boats to drive to be " trained".

Brads comments seem very sensible to me

 

 

 

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Somewhat surprisingly I find myself largely in agreement with BRAD's comments.  The RYA system requires retraining of an OM every 4 years. See section 8 of this RYA document for details of their system.   Th  bit I find difficult to live with with regards to the MYA is that they have totally delegated the situation regarding class measurers to the MYA but require all such measurers to satisfy their basic sail measurer system first and on an ongoing basis.  It should be possible to delegate sail measurer training for Radio sailors only  and have a MYA sail measurer course for radio sailors only which  (if appropriate) the content and syllabus is approved by the RYA.  Of course it will require someone to administer and run such courses to be found from a volunteer organisation whereas using the RYA system takes out the need to find yet another committed volunteer.   The snag is the ongoing need to also be individual members of the RYA and who picks up this bill. 

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Or….we could look openly at solutions that would not have cleared the decks of current measurers and worked with them if any ‘refreshment’ was needed to stay up to speed with their relevant classes.

Before that though, would it have been smart to identify any actual problems, identify classes with such and act?

I believe within the MYA Technical Office role that there are then Technical Officers within each district that report back to the TO? If so then how hard is it to identify any anomalies within the measurement and certification process?
For example, an owner a district has their boat measured by a club measurer. Papers are stamped and sent on to the class registrar. The class registrar in ratifying the paperwork and checking that all is in order comes across an error. Now this could be a simple mistake, an oversight, lack of knowledge, training or whatever on the part of the measurer. Our friendly registrars job is not to determine the issue, but help the often new skipper in a friendly way that will rectify or refer the matter to the relevant district Technical Officer. Any issues can be sorted to help all parties and we learn and move on. Is this too simple?

Now can we look at what sort of problem currently exist or if there are any?

If there are problems, surely these will be seen at event check in. I can only comment on the classes I race but can not believe such an overhaul is warranted in measurement training or practice given the level of compliance at events I have been to. At our UK IOM National events we often put our boats on the scales and a check of certificates are made.  At Marblehead events our boats go in a length jig for some reason that I am yet to understand and certificates are checked. Ten Rater events have certificates checked. We trust that certificates issued have been done so correctly through the above process linking owner/measurer and registrar. 
Now at all of these events, I can not remember an instance of non compliance here that could not be seen as a simple oversight or error that could not be sorted at the pond side before racing commenced. Such oversights are often down to the skipper who’s obligation it is to keep any measured boat or equipment in rule compliance and not the fault of the above measurement/certification process.

Now to add to the above I can only remember 2 instances in over a dozen International events were some correction was needed to adjust a boats measurement to become legal. In one instance this was a simple owner oversight easily corrected and the other, a misunderstanding of a class rule change by both the measurer and subsequently missed by the registrar. In both instances there was no attempt to flout the rules, just simple errors easily corrected and learnt from.
 

Yes the odd sail number may need washing and a changing of position or size at an event and yes a gentle word or explanation can help a new skipper understand how a bundle of lower rigs need to fit within a measured certificate. An IOM skipper can need reminding that only one A rig can be used at an event and so on. But these are not fundamental measurement problems and are easily resolved through simple education. Class groups can do this.

I just can’t understand the push to upend a system that largely works well and has served the hobby/sport here for so long. There are so many more areas at events that can be better policed if the intention of this overhaul is to somehow address rule compliance. We don’t over police at events as the time taken would see little time left to race so we trust the owners declaration and certification.

The current situation is not broken. Refresher courses at open events would be a simple way of bringing owners and measurers up to speed. No great seminars needed. District TOs can also assist at district event through education.

There can always be room for improvement but what is proposed is not that…

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A few of snags with this

1. To be a recognised OM under the system of delegation from World Sailing the has to be chain of authorisation from world sailing to the MNA (the RYA) and then via whoever they then delegate authority to to authorise the OM.  Unfortunately this delegation was found not to exist for our current measurers except that after this agreement they conceded temporary recognition of MYA OM until end 2022.  Due to Covid this period is likely to be extended.

2. There is no such role as a regional/Area TO.  There is the MYA TO and there can be COG Class TO but if no such person is appointed by the COG then this role is covered by the MYA TO.

3. Holding Training sessions at International, National or Ranking events will not work. OM who are involved in the event as participants or organisers just will not have the time or the mindset to do both.  Anyway where is the volunteer to organise such training at events?  It's difficult enough to get participants  to turn up in time for event measurement scrutinising let alone OM who are not participants or organisers.  

4. Many events have no effective event scrutinising and yes problems do occur when it does take place. and yes even at International events with strict event measurement, issues do occur due to measurer incompetence.  I know of one sailor who was told his sails did not meet the measurements on his certificate.  It turned out after complete re-measurement by an event OM that they did it was forms incorrectly completed by the OM  that caused the problem!  Fortunately event scrutinising was over 3 days so there was time to resolve this issue in the country concerned. Checking there is a current certificate for a boat is basic event management. Not scrutinising.  It does not mean that the boat complies with the section C class rules matters which are not part of the certification process.  There are additional spot checks  . At one Nationals event a boat was disqualified because the sails used in the event had never been checked by an OM and signed off and the certificate produced should not have been issued as all the measurement pages were not signed off by an OM.

5. YES there have been lots of problems with OM who had got into lazy or bad habits, missed/ignored  changes to class rules and/or interpretations, failed to complete forms/spreadsheets correctly, or even remembered to sign them. Some have been quite rude/obsructive to Registrars who have tried to get these issues resolved. Some have been suspended pending re-training, to be organised on a one to one basis, which they have declined to take up.  A lot of decline in numbers of OM pre Covid has also been due to ageing with older OM deciding their eyesight and measurement abilities were no longer up to it or that they were too old to keep up to date with changes in class rules and the application of new technology.  So new volunteer measurers need to be found and trained.

The new system is intendeds to make the training of CLASS measurers the responsibility of the COGS with the MYA ratifying their appointment and some requirement every 4 years for refresher training.  The snags that needs resolving are how to bring all OM back up to a uniform standard of refreshed competence across the country and to ensure that their appointment is recognised by the RYA as the delegated NMA.  Currently the only way of doing this is to have all OM pass the RYA sail measurers course and be members of the RYA.... All I am saying is that there has to be another way to get the RYA recognition.

 

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1 hour ago, Solent said:

A few of snags with this

1. To be a recognised OM under the system of delegation from World Sailing the has to be chain of authorisation from world sailing to the MNA (the RYA) and then via whoever they then delegate authority to to authorise the OM.  Unfortunately this delegation was found not to exist for our current measurers except that after this agreement they conceded temporary recognition of MYA OM until end 2022.  Due to Covid this period is likely to be extended.

 

And this all came about recently by which people rattling which cage exactly? There is not another NCA or DM of the IRSA that require any class measurer to be an approved measurer of their relevant local World Sailing/RYA equivalent. Was this a push instigated by our MYA for whatever reasons can only be known to those involved knowing the burdens associated, or was this a case of our RYA looking at/for a cash cow? Surely, as the MYA is the granted Authority by the RYA of Radio Sailing within this country, that enables it to ratify its own measurer certification. For instance when someone seeks a specific accreditation within the RYA do they then need to seek a higher equivalent with World Sailing above to validate such, or is an RYA accreditation as GBRs WS delegate here accepted?

For whatever reason, I suspect those in play have rattled a cage we can now not return from. If so, those should be held to account.

1 hour ago, Solent said:

2. There is no such role as a regional/Area TO.  There is the MYA TO and there can be COG Class TO but if no such person is appointed by the COG then this role is covered by the MYA TO.

So you are saying District Technical Officers no longer exist? OK, I was not aware of that

1 hour ago, Solent said:

3. Holding Training sessions at International, National or Ranking events will not work. OM who are involved in the event as participants or organisers just will not have the time or the mindset to do both.  Anyway where is the volunteer to organise such training at events?  It's difficult enough to get participants  to turn up in time for event measurement scrutinising let alone OM who are not participants or organisers.  

Absolute rubbish. If a class or group of people are genuinely keen to hold a chat for any reason they will find the time. If you can find time to drink all night at socials, you can spare 30mins on one night to listen to a few updates or take in a quick refresher. A volunteer? That could be a present TO, a registrar, an active class TO or a measurer. An active class group would make such happen. Tired class groups will find excuses.

1 hour ago, Solent said:

4. Many events have no effective event scrutinising and yes problems do occur when it does take place. and yes even at International events with strict event measurement, issues do occur due to measurer incompetence.  I know of one sailor who was told his sails did not meet the measurements on his certificate.  It turned out after complete re-measurement by an event OM that they did it was forms incorrectly completed by the OM  that caused the problem!  Fortunately event scrutinising was over 3 days so there was time to resolve this issue in the country concerned. Checking there is a current certificate for a boat is basic event management. Not scrutinising.  It does not mean that the boat complies with the section C class rules matters which are not part of the certification process.  There are additional spot checks  . At one Nationals event a boat was disqualified because the sails used in the event had never been checked by an OM and signed off and the certificate produced should not have been issued as all the measurement pages were not signed off by an OM.

It might be worth dropping back a notch to remember measurers are human and mistakes can occur. They can occur at all levels. I make mistakes in manufacture, I know measurers who have made mistakes including myself. I also know of registrars and other areas where mistakes are made. Calling such out as incompetence is not appropriate and possibly gives some background to your message tone/claims and that of what the MYA is pushing. I have not seen or know of the level of issues you seem to think are prevailing. That those you mention were sorted and no doubt learnt from, then I don’t see what there is to get worked up about unless the problems are reoccurring. If so then surely measurers are updated by the TO or class TO and we move on?

1 hour ago, Solent said:

 

5. YES there have been lots of problems with OM who had got into lazy or bad habits, missed/ignored  changes to class rules and/or interpretations, failed to complete forms/spreadsheets correctly, or even remembered to sign them. Some have been quite rude/obsructive to Registrars who have tried to get these issues resolved. Some have been suspended pending re-training, to be organised on a one to one basis, which they have declined to take up.  A lot of decline in numbers of OM pre Covid has also been due to ageing with older OM deciding their eyesight and measurement abilities were no longer up to it or that they were too old to keep up to date with changes in class rules and the application of new technology.  So new volunteer measurers need to be found and trained.

I think we might be getting a little carried away here as this is not a common thread through the wider classes as the doom and gloom you suggest. Sure, life does move on for some as they age and step back from offering their services to the sport. Can I suggest that calling out hard working time offering measurers as lazy, having bad habits that may have missed or ignored blah blah is unfair. If this is the mindset of above officialdom(or their helpers) then there is no wonder certain classes struggle through an unwelcome and disrespecting tone regularly used, and those same officials should not be surprised when that same tone is replied with. This is meant to be a fun pastime. Worth remembering when all some can think about is rules and regulations over getting as many boats on the water and enjoying some sailing.

As mentioned above, any shortfalls or tweaks to our present system can be sorted. No doubt the right agreement can be made with the RYA to deliver a realistic set of regulations that cover our measurers accreditations over the farce that is being pushed. If not, let’s continue arguing about rules, regulations, constitutions and all the other rubbish that is dragging our open classes down the tubes while those allowed to do their own thing and free of this kind of rubbish dance along happily.

Again, big picture anyone? Anyone want to stop and realise why so few can be bothered to turn up to events, why people have walked away or why people don’t even bother to join the debate anymore? Yes, let’s keep on about measurement of boats that struggle to get 8 boats to a ranking event, that will solve things😳

Brad

Edited by Brad Gibson
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Yes, I agree, the focus should be on getting people sailing.  

Yes OM are human and mistakes occur.  I sincerely hope that a better arrangement with the RYA can be established so that we can go ahead without rancour.  However currently we are stuck with what we have.  World Sailing delegate authority to NMA (i.e RYA in UK) to appoint National Measurers.  International Measurers are directly appointed by World Sailing and must have ben National Measurers first and pass the World Sailing Training Courses.

In terms of  what  is an OM look at the ERS definitions not IRSA or Class requirements.

District TO role disappeared a number of years ago.  

If my choice of words has caused any particular OM offence I apologise perhaps become less careful and not keeping up to date would be  a fairer reflection of how the situation for most was standing in 2017.  There are many very good competent OM out there, unfortunately there have been in recent years some who have caused considerable grief. We just need to get their appointment to be one recognised  as valid by the international hierarchy of powers that be and ensure that the refresher training lapses of the past are not repeated.

For a new OM applicant 30 minutes general discussion is not going to suffice.   Most events are one day and people want to get home. Not all OM attend such events anyway and all need to be equally kept up to date.  At multiple day events people want to relax, recover and rest not have to concentrate on giving or receiving training.  Yes, one day seminars will not always be needed but something more than a chat at the pond side or in the bar is required. That is why there are efforts going on to work up online training for the non-practical bits of Class OM Training with a subsequent session in a group or 1 to 1  to do the practical bits. 

With Covid restrictions over more are attending meetings and sailing at their clubs on a regular basis.  Getting volunteers for any aspect of setting this up and administering this is problematic.  As you said most just want to sail and have someone else do the the administration and organisation bit, no one wants paid MYA staff and the complications of employment law that would entail. 

So we need to agree that this is not something we can influence further through a forum discussion such as this.

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Solent said:

District TO role disappeared a number of years ago.  

The official role was District Senior Measurer, unlike the ranking regulations team that was disbanded by incoming MYA officers, another mistake!

I don't recall any mention of making District Senior Measurers redundant.

Perhaps someone could point me to the relevent MYA council minutes with reasons for not contrinuing with District Senior Measurers?

Someone might also want to tell the District Senior Measurer for the Scottish District "Steve Taylor".

Steve is still listed as DSM on the MYA Scottish District website.

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At no point was it suggested that 30 minutes would be suffice to train a new measurer. Let’s not lose the plot here or twist and exaggerate shall we. It was though suggested or intended that regular refresher courses or updates could be held quickly to discuss certain topics at an open meeting type event. You could be surprised how short sharp education and interaction with skippers, owners and measurers could benefit rule adherence going forward, without having to look down and label OMs with less than kind terms for not meeting ‘holy’ standards.

As for getting volunteers, first it could be worth looking as to why the sport struggles to keep those that do step forward. People will step forward and have done so. Why did they walk and why have others lost the will to bother? Worth finding the answers I’d say. And while looking for people to step forward, we actively look to disparage and remove existing volunteer OMs? I could put a safe bet on though that few would look to volunteer given the current climate.

Which all brings us back to the crux and this sudden insistence on RYA accreditation to become a full measurer. Now as you are so keen to point out the need for this, I fear the MYA will be on the front foot making a pariah of themselves at the next International event in claiming near all other Nationalities boats are non compliant? No doubt this will be done in the good old spirit of ‘getting people sailing’ but I can assure you I know of one large DNM who would shut its doors over offering one cent to its National Sailing body that has caused no end of grief to it through multiple attempts of money grabbing over the years.

To close, Janice I have to say that as an assistant to the 10R class Registrar if the role is causing you considerable grief for what must be less than 10 registrations a year, then this may well be a class related problem and not that of a very wide and hard working group of measurers and registrars across the country. You would think a pretty easy class to get on top of rules wise at less than one registration a month. I’m not aware of other classes demanding such overhauls in the measurement and certification processes, but it would not be the first time wide reaching changes were bought in by individuals demanding fictional problems needed fixing. 

All in the name of getting people sailing of course…

 

 

 

Edited by Brad Gibson
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1 hour ago, Gavin Watson said:

The official role was District Senior Measurer, unlike the ranking regulations team that was disbanded by incoming MYA officers, another mistake!

I don't recall any mention of making District Senior Measurers redundant.

Perhaps someone could point me to the relevant MYA council minutes with reasons for not continuing with District Senior Measurers?

Someone might also want to tell the District Senior Measurer for the Scottish District "Steve Taylor".

Steve is still listed as DSM on the MYA Scottish District website.

By virtue of its agreed Constitution, the Scottish District has an elected committee of four posts - District Chair, District Secretary, District Racing Secretary and District Senior Measurer. As per our Constitution, MYA members are formally nominated and subsequently elected at the Scottish District AGM.

These roles have been in place for many, many years. The management model has stood the test of time forming an effective team running Scottish District business for the benefit of its constituent clubs and members in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

The use of the term "District Senior Measurer" as used/not used by the MYA may be different from that of the Scottish District. Our system works.

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the midland district has on its committee the post of DSM, I was given to understand during the time of our previous tech Officer the role was proposed to be removed , but it hasnt happened here.

I totally agree that OM need to be trained but trained by the MYA we are the ones who are sailing and running the classes not the RYA , but the system isnt yet broken just age covid and computerisation of the system has persuaded some of our measurers that its now not for them.

 

Mike Ewart

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Age, Covid and computerisation are very small factors regarding me as a measurer.

Main factors are, spending a day at a weekend in a classroom where the relevance of the content is a small percentage of what I am required to undertake as a MYA measurer, if not at the weekend, I have to use annual leave.

It also does not sit well with me that members annual fees are used to pay for something that does not effect them one bit, countless club members that enjoy the sport for what it is and have no intention of ever getting there boat measured or sail in a class that is self measured.

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As I said near the beginning of this thread, let the class COG's get on with administering their own classes. They can create the guides on best practise when it comes to measuring and registration, highly useful for owners, designers and measurers alike.

The registrars are part of the Class COG, so if they are seeing issues with the forms coming into them, this is where the COG Team offer help and advice to the owner/measurer concerned. Sometimes the intricacies of designers pushing to the limit and a miss understanding by the owner/measurer can be easily rectified.
Also the forms can be discussed and ideas put forward for future updated to make it easier to complete.

As we have seen from the TO and the Registrars data, the International and National classes are not generating that many new boat registrations per year. Surely this is where the COG team can help owners/measurers learn going forward - not dragging people over hot coals for doing something wrong.

The RYA Sail course is about as much use to most Existing Measurers as a chocolate teapot. We have sails on rigs, we have different types of sails....
The biggest issue is measuring the boats or complete package, the RYA aren't getting involved here so why get involved with just the sails.
Now I have just said above to 'Existing Measurers'. I agree there has to be something put inlace for new measurers, but again this should be coming from the COG covering the whole package and not just sails.

The COG's are going to have to deal with boat measurement and not the RYA. For example my RA hull needs to be measured first before the sails are even made.

Keep the pennies and expand on the experience and knowledge within the MYA fold.

 

PS - was the Northern District Senior Measurer, but now just a Measurement Advisor.

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In response to Brad All I would say is that It was not just me but many others that were caused unnecessary grief by the matter concerned but hopefully that is all now in the past.

On the matter in hand I agree that the RYA should only be involved to the extent of delegating all responsibility for Radio Sailing OM accreditation to the MYA (which World Sailing rules allow it to do).  The MYA should run the necesscary training and refresher training using the COGS for Class expertise and maintain the database of current accredited Radio Sailing OM.  There will be some OM who wish to be accredited for more than one class.  There also may be a place for a general OM sail measurer for classes who do not have class specific sail measuring requirements, if only to have more OM who can measure sails for multiple classes around the country.

So we come back to where are the people to run this, set up a minimum standard syllabus, validate the the training/trained person meets a suitable competency standard, ensure refresher training takes place and keep the records?  Is this a role for the MYA TO? or should we have a delegated MYA Training Officer?  After all Technical Officers and OM are not necessarily the same thing.

Damian  the A claa is not the only one with this conundrum before fundamental measurement it applies to the 10R  as well.

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Not sure any class has a COG, Malcolm, Gavin, Steve, Nick and myself tried for over 12 months to become the IOM COG but in the end we did not reach the standards the MYA wanted, even though they never actually told us the standards involved.

Vane group have an umbrella COG but that's it I think.

No volunteers, battle to get clubs to run the larger entry races for IOM, measurers running to the hills, future MYA council meetings held in telephone box with room to spare.

Alarm bells ringing for me, anyone else feel like this? MYA numbers may of increased but only being propped up by non adopted classes with these class's not wanting to go anywhere near.

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I think the point has been made clearly and near all are in agreement that enforcing RYA accreditation through a sail mesurement course largely not fit for our purpose is illogical. Our MYA through its TO we hope would be looking at ways to set an understanding/agreement with the RYA that allows our measurers to continue as they have for many years (and others do abroad) be certified measurers of international classes.

Damian hit the nail on the head in that COGs are the ones that can set any specific refresher courses or training of measurers if needed to suit the needs of their own specific class. 

What we have at present is a very good group of measurers largely happy to give their time freely. I have no doubt that any measurer would welcome updates on measurement practice and procedure within any class group. 

All of the above is practical and achievable. Talk of wide sweeping changes, the need of mass volunteers to run seminars and coaching weekends or similar totally miss the point of where the sport and its membership are at. COGs through a head class measurement officer and the class registrar will have few problems in keeping measurers working smoothly if they are prepared to work with them as opposed to chastising or belittling them.
 

A very small minority making noise and suggestions that the current state of mesurement needs an overhaul reflects more on inabilities of that minority to work well within a class, not the wider sport. Given the low levels of support and present state of the classes linked to this I would suggest a reset on what actually is important within the sport is required by some. Measurement overhauls and seminars for a sub 10 boat event entry is not a priority. Big picture!

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To further indicate the direction in which the RYA is travelling, I'm a shore-based cruising instructor, and my Club has had to replace our Diesel instructor.  If we wish to  continue providing RYA courses, the new Instructor HAS to be hold at least a Yachtmaster Offshore... As if that trumps an ex-commercial shipping engineer...

Edited by Guzzilazz

Larry

IOM sailor

North Essex

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I am very happy sailing Df65 and 95 so this " saga" does not affect me immediately. But I would like to have the possibility of returning to  the classes  requiring measurement in the future.

Am I safe to assume that the Mya has abandoned the plans for measurers to be required to have Rya training and verification?

Edited by ianrmcdonald
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On 01/04/2022 at 10:55, ianrmcdonald said:

I am very happy sailing Df65 and 95 so this " saga" does not affect me immediately. But I would like to have the possibility of returning to  the classes  requiring measurement in the future.

Am I safe to assume that the Mya has abandoned the plans for measurers to be required to have Rya training and verification?

I assume from the lack of response , I assume consideration of this matter is ongoing.

I would like to thank both MYA officers  and those just working within RC for all the ( often thankless  ) work you are doing for our hobby. 

I am sure it will all be resolved by the time I decide to buy another IOM!

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  • 1 month later...

This is a very interesting discussion I was a measurer for many years however I believe we are missing an opportunity. In my own club (Etherow) we do not have a measurer we have over 100 members 20+ sail yachts, mostly IOMs, Fiestas and an increasing number of DF65s. We struggle to get 6 members to join the MYA. To get a boat measured we would have to go usually to Birkenhead, Fleetwood or into Yorkshire, I have a couple of IOMs which have registered numbers but will never be measured  due to  distance etc and we have other IOMs that will never be measured officially (I wonder how many numbers are issued but no measurement certificate is ever submitted) I understand that there are numbers of unmeasured boats at Bury and Platt Fields clubs also.

For IOMs we all buy sails from recognised English sail makers and sail hulls that have been made to recognised designs. We have no tank to check draft  but we assume the draft from the plans and set up the boat on its design waterline, from that we can measure the total draft against the rules, we also use digital scales to check weight. The sails and rigging are easy to measure. My point being that there is no need to have special check weights, or to go on RYA courses for IOMs we only have one current member who attends district events but there is no encouragement for our members to take a wider part in district events, the MYA offers nothing to these people. We don't have any one prepared to become an official measurer and attend the RYA course.

Why can we not have a simplified system for club sailors who may occasionally attend  district  or open  events with the proviso that a full official measurement must be undertaken to attend Nationals etc. Does a 36 require an RYA course certificated measurer when the sail area isn't measured ? 

Steve Toulson

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Hi Steve

I write this with tears rolling down my cheeks because you have got it spot on, in my view. What is the point in forcing club/casual/social sailors to get their boats measured by the same tortuous process as required (quite reasonably) for those wanting to race in National etc events? Talk about tail wagging dog! A two-tiered approach to both measuring/lack of it and indeed to the MYA itself seems appropriate - which will, with proper organisation, free up resources where they are really required and allow casual sailors to get on with enjoying their sailing. Of course there is nothing to stop a club check-measuring boats like IOMs to ensure fair competition as, after all, who measures a DF65 when its sails are replaced? Also, a club sailor who then wishes to enter a District or National event should expect to get his or her boat “officially” measured.

Paul

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5 hours ago, Paulabrooks8 said:

Hi Steve

I write this with tears rolling down my cheeks because you have got it spot on, in my view. What is the point in forcing club/casual/social sailors to get their boats measured by the same tortuous process as required (quite reasonably) for those wanting to race in National etc events? Talk about tail wagging dog! A two-tiered approach to both measuring/lack of it and indeed to the MYA itself seems appropriate - which will, with proper organisation, free up resources where they are really required and allow casual sailors to get on with enjoying their sailing. Of course there is nothing to stop a club check-measuring boats like IOMs to ensure fair competition as, after all, who measures a DF65 when its sails are replaced? Also, a club sailor who then wishes to enter a District or National event should expect to get his or her boat “officially” measured.

Paul

Hi Paul/ Steve,

I think that a clubs rules re measurement are up to the club and its members, but I would be very wary of trying to introduce any two tier system.

I feel that the whole reason for the MYA's existence is to create racing of a common set of rules and regs across the UK and a sensible common approach to all aspects of racing encourages participation across the various districts and countries.

As to wait individuals consider sensible is unfortunatley variable ....... :)

 

Darin

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I feel that the whole reason for the MYA's existence is to create racing of a common set of rules and regs across the UK and a sensible common approach to all aspects of racing encourages participation across the various districts and countries.

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure someone will) but doesn't IRSA set the class rules (for the international classes at least) and World Sailing the Racing rules? I will freely admit to being thoroughly confused about the relationship and responsibilities between IRSA, RYA, MYA and the COGS (If and when they exist).  I looked on the MYA website under 'What we do' and was definitely none the wiser.  It is clear however that the MYA has a responsibility for the promotion of Radio Sailing within the UK and others have already expressed their views on how well they do that job,

The point about it being IRSA not the MYA is that the rules are set internationally not nationally, so I don't understand why the UK has measurer requirements that other countries do not.  If there are problems with the 'quality' of the measurement process in some countries then how does imposing stricter standards on just one country solve this?  

Maybe it's because I don't understand how it works but I'm struggling to see what the MYA does for my money and why they can impose requirements that don't exist in other countries.  I looked for a 'Mission Statement' or similar on the MYA website but couldn't find one.  What I did find was this:

Quote

The MYA is the National Authority for Radio and Free sailing in the UK and are affiliated to, and recognised by, the Royal Yachting Association and the International Radio Sailing Association (IRSA) providing direct links to World Sailing and enabling us to have influence on the rules governing our sport.

Enable 'us' to have influence on?  Shouldn't that be 'to promote the views of the members on'? Yes the MYA officers are elected by the members but there doesn't seem to be much consultation with the members taking place about these (and other) issues .  Even our beloved politicians would claim that they are elected to represent the views of ALL their constituents, not to pursue their own agendas.

It might help if someone representing the MYA issued a statement explaining why these measurer courses were considered necessary i.e. what problem are they trying to solve.  And also provide a justification that learning how to measure 'full size' sails will solve it.

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On 18/05/2022 at 09:09, John949 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure someone will) but doesn't IRSA set the class rules (for the international classes at least) and World Sailing the Racing rules? I will freely admit to being thoroughly confused about the relationship and responsibilities between IRSA, RYA, MYA and the COGS (If and when they exist).  I looked on the MYA website under 'What we do' and was definitely none the wiser.  It is clear however that the MYA has a responsibility for the promotion of Radio Sailing within the UK and others have already expressed their views on how well they do that job,

The point about it being IRSA not the MYA is that the rules are set internationally not nationally, so I don't understand why the UK has measurer requirements that other countries do not.  If there are problems with the 'quality' of the measurement process in some countries then how does imposing stricter standards on just one country solve this? 

Maybe my earlier post needs clarifying, but the role of the MYA is to allow skippers to race to a common set of rules across the UK. This may now be a little outdated but was the original reason for its formation as there were differing scoring and racing systems before and during its early formative years.

The common rules we use are the RRS and the Class rules (whether International, National, or one design), alongside MYA participation rules for the larger events.

 

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On 18/05/2022 at 09:09, John949 said:

Enable 'us' to have influence on?  Shouldn't that be 'to promote the views of the members on'? Yes the MYA officers are elected by the members but there doesn't seem to be much consultation with the members taking place about these (and other) issues .  Even our beloved politicians would claim that they are elected to represent the views of ALL their constituents, not to pursue their own agendas.

The "Us" by the way is everyone as the we are all the MYA, not just the council.

Unfortunately I feel that whilst there are a small number of vocal volunteers, that the membership as a whole does not wish to get involved with the running of the sport and experience tells me that feedback is very difficult to obtain- maybe a list of vacant roles would help people to understand some of the difficulties.

 

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Hi Darin

By a “list of vacant roles” you mean like the list that appears in the only communication method sent to all members - that is the Newsletter?! It’s quite hard to reach any other conclusion than that the members are apathetic to what’s needed to run the MYA as those members want it run. Sad really.

Paul

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On 19/05/2022 at 22:32, Paulabrooks8 said:

Hi Darin

By a “list of vacant roles” you mean like the list that appears in the only communication method sent to all members - that is the Newsletter?! It’s quite hard to reach any other conclusion than that the members are apathetic to what’s needed to run the MYA as those members want it run. Sad really.

Pa

"Vacant roles" should be a separate Forum topic. However, some quick points before returning to "Ready signed sails":

"... the Newsletter" - haven't seen it for quite a while. Also, haven't seen it promoted recently via MYA website, Facebook, etc. Furthermore, communication with the members needs to be via multiple channels on a serious topic such as

"... the members are apathetic" - if we are to assume that members are apathetic, then we need to ask "Why?". If Districts are functioning effectively, then what is the source of the apathy? Some serious questions need to be asked by Council members of themselves to address this point and how they propose to engage and motivate the membership. Only then will members be interested in filling vacant roles.

"Sad really." - fully agree.

Now can we get back to the topic - measurement of sails and why the demotivating rigmarole of needing RYA certification of MYA Measurers when the MYA has been running modelling yachting for over one hundred years?

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