The Start and windward boats

[RoRo]

Hi l am looking for some advise with examples of rules on the start and calls to make please.

We have start lines that aren't always perfect at our club and make the best of certain wind conditions which is great and enables us to have alot of fun but can sometimes see a whole fleet running down the line in some cases.

The situation l would like to talk about is rights of leeward boats at the start line and the ability to push windward boats over the line.

Because some start lines can be biased on certain days people or fleets will run the line. If someone has taken the time to position their boat correctly then move to the start line to be met by boats running the line can you push them over the line.

Equally if you have messed up but fall in leeward to a boat can you luff up and call for them as windward boat to give room.
What are the rules regarding this and how can one take advantage without breaking the rules?

I believe it is ok to push boats over at the start and call them, afterall why should someone who arrives early at the line then runs it be allowed to ruin your start and gain an advantage?

To be clear l have been on both sides and as a rc sailor who has been in the sport a short time but long enough to be expected to get a proper grip of the rules l would really like this cleared up by an experienced sailor please.

Many thanks
Rohan

[John Ball]

Hi Rohan,

the rules to read are 11, 12, 15, and 16.1. R17 does not apply before the start.

You may find Chapter 2 STarts on my web site useful

https://sites.google.com/site/johnsrcsailingrulesandtactics/

When a boat is sitting just below the line and another boat approaches from astern, the boat astern has to keep clear. R12.

When the approaching boat establishes a leeward overlap from astern, the rule changes and R11 applies and the now windward boat must keep , however as ROW changed, the windward boat initially must have room to keep clear R15. Once room has been given and as R 11 applies, W must keep clear, but if L wants to luff up a bit to push W over, then R16.1 applies as L with ROW changes course and again W must be given room.

John

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by John Ball

[RoRo]

So once a leeward boat has given room (how much time is reasonable) how can l enforce windward to keep clear.

Would "keep up" suffice. 

Also if they dont get out the way and force you down the course how do you get a penalty? Just shout protest? Or carry on th he course you intend to go and hope they get out the way?

When the leeward boat clears the Windwards stern how far should this be around mast point or just nose ahead of windward stern.

If leeward is below windward coming straight to start l assume it's the windward boat running down the line obligation to keep out way.

 

[RoRo]

Thank you John for the comment.

 

[John Ball]

Hi Rohan,

I have created a couple of diagrams - the overlap starts as soon as the bow of Green reaches a line drawn square off the transom of Yellow.

In the upper diagram, the overlap at P2 is too close - even to the point that as Green moves forward and Yellow sheets in her sails to start to respond, Green could be trapped by the boom of Yellow.

In the lower diagram, it looks like room is given. A hail of 'stay up' is quite appropriate.

If Yellow does not respond, then hail protest at the time of the incident. For more info on how to protest, see Chapter 7. The Protest.

John

Sufficient room.pdf

Edited January 20, 2022 by John Ball
Added inof about how to protest

[RoRo]

Hi John,

thank you once again for your time on this. I really appreciate your input it is very helpful.

Best wishes

Rohan

[Derek Priestley]

Unfortunately this very scenario happens a lot at club racing.

Boats arrive early with speed at the line, and seem to have the mindset not to cross the line but to bear away and run/reach down the line messing up the starts of those who CAN control their boats at a standstill half a boat length from the line. 

My soloution is to be a bit late to the line after they've gone so that my start is not affected and, try to train those early starters that they CAN cross the line and "go around again" and try to be better with their timing next time. 

[Graham Elliott]

Practice, practice, practice. Train alone if needed, hold your boat in position for 20 seconds, then increase time upto 1 minute without being in irons when you sheet on. 

This one minute can be as much as 90 seconds at Euros or Worlds depending on how critical positioning is on the start line.

[RoRo]

Thank you for the input here. It's much appreciated, good info to improve my sailing and good nuggets for everyone. Cheers

Rohan

[Darin Ballington]

On 20/01/2022 at 09:04, Derek Priestley said:

Unfortunately this very scenario happens a lot at club racing.

Boats arrive early with speed at the line, and seem to have the mindset not to cross the line but to bear away and run/reach down the line messing up the starts of those who CAN control their boats at a standstill half a boat length from the line. 

My soloution is to be a bit late to the line after they've gone so that my start is not affected and, try to train those early starters that they CAN cross the line and "go around again" and try to be better with their timing next time. 

I have found that newer skippers sometimes do not understand that they are allowed to cross the line... The other element that isnt always considered is how late you can bail out and go round again, its amazing how far an RC boat can go in 10 seconds.

As Derek and Graham have said, practice and your own starting strategy are the best plans for the start line, trying to get others to avoid you can be very frustrating, although I would add that a lot of the time the race officer should also consider why boats are running down the line, as a good line bias allows most skippers to hold their boats in reasonable order.

[Mike Ewart]

the only thing that I think needs to be added is that the leeward boat with rightds to luff up should do it a speed the windward boat can respond to , calling up and throwing full rudder is not acceptable as sometimes happens

[Derek Priestley]

Agreed Mike, but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,it's also not acceptable to be "wiped out" by a boat running/reaching down n

the line at speed when they could just sail over and re start.

[Mike Ewart]

yes Derek but since they changed the rules to suit big boat sailors we have to live with the room and opportunity rubbish that stops the fast luff to frighten the life out of them

[Derek Priestley]

Also agreed Mike, but................  if you have been stationary flapping for 40 secs a boat length from the line.  and a boat arriving early bears away and runs into you I would argue that you have given that boat plenty of room & opportunity!!!

[Mike Ewart]

yes I agree with that one Derek

[John Ball]

8 hours ago, Derek Priestley said:

Also agreed Mike, but................  if you have been stationary flapping for 40 secs a boat length from the line.  and a boat arriving early bears away and runs into you I would argue that you have given that boat plenty of room & opportunity!!!

Hi Derek,

I am trying to imagine what you mean here - if a boat bears away and runs into you - they have probably broken R 11 (W/L) and there is no requirement for you to give them any room or opportunity.

 

John

[Derek Priestley]

Hi John,

 

Yes agreed, but when they are new comers to racing the see the start line as a barrier they must not cross until GO!!  so sometimes, in a panic, when they are early they bear away and run down the line into the path of the boats who are starting correctly.

At Fleetwood club races, when I am racing, which is not often, I hang back so as not to get my start affected!  and later I try to explain & train the "learners" that they can indeed cross the line and "go around again".  Also I try to get them to practise their starting so that they have more control of their boats.

 

Derek P