Jump to content

International Marblehead Class Association Notice Re World Sailing Application


Darin Ballington
 Share

Recommended Posts

The notice below has recently been received by the MYA International Officer.

Important Update for the Foundation Members of the IMCA and ITCA

September 19th 2021
 

Direct Membership to World Sailing

Dear Members,
The Foundation Executives, after due consideration, have recently decided as part of the best
practice of setting up the two associations to apply for direct membership to World Sailing rather
than through the IRSA. The applications have been submitted to be considered in the WS October
meeting.
This decision was not taken lightly and has been agreed on unanimously.
So why change from a traditional link to the IRSA?
There are a lot of positives with this move.
1. The two international class associations will have direct access to WS.
2. The right for each of the ICAs to hold a class world championship is currently linked to the
IRSA allocation which is written directly into WS Regulations. This move will enable IRSA to
use its allocation for other classes.
3. Each of the ICAs may appoint a member to the WS Classes Committee.
4. It is felt that for the future development of the classes a more direct link with WS rather
than via the IRSA would be of benefit.
5. The ICAs already have Events and Technical matters organised. This move will make it
possible to argue more strongly for ICA representation on the WS App E Working Party. So
all three items that the IRSA currently administers for the classes will be catered for making
the extra layer of IRSA administration unnecessary.
6. The associations will have full access to all of the fees from the Championships and will not
be sharing with the IRSA. This is a solid financial base to continue from and easily covers any
ongoing costs of membership to WS.
So, in summary, this definitely gives the classes more freedom as they continue to fine tune and
modernise for the future.
Except for the fact it is a change from tradition, we feel it is the right pathway to take from here.
Change such as this, as explained, brings opportunities.
The identified costs of direct membership include:
1. Initial application fee of 1000 GBR pounds.
2. Ongoing fees of several hundred pounds each year.

Please feel free to respond to this notice if you have any questions on this matter.

Membership update Applications for membership to WS .pdf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know that there will be plenty of views and opinions on this statement but from my perspective I would prefer that the IMCA concentrates on participation in the class and encouraging radio sailors to sail the M before approaching WS.

This does appear to be a bit of trying to run before you can walk.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just baffling that two newly formed framework associations, run by an essentially self appointed group think that decisions like this should in no way be something put before invested owners beforehand.

Given the amount of hat wearing that crosses from our MYA, IRSA and now both the International Marblehead and Ten Rater Class Associations, would a little bit of transparency be too much to ask?

At present we have our MYA controlling the 4 International IRSA classes at UK National level, yet reluctant to allow classes to control themselves, thus retaining control.

Yet in this new instance, we have 2 International Classes wishing to go it alone for their own control, leaving IRSA, the governing body of Radio Sailing, within World Sailing? Given the crossover mentioned above, how in any way is this move consistent across the two levels? How is it that some officials are proposing to leave a group that they are an acting official of? Are all groups being served in their best interests?

Now which hat to wear today…?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 positives but no negatives listed, too good to be true surely?

Power mad people making decisions that will eventually kill the class's they get involved in.

4 entries for this years 10r Nationals so far, channel your energy into boosting numbers.

The milliner will be busy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator

Just so everyone is aware with all the hat wearing accusations. The MYA council currently have no one that is also part the IMCA and ITCA which has been the case well before this release.

We are a bit late releasing our September council meeting documents but they will be published today. Once published you can read the Chair's report.

We live in a democracy so in November members have a chance to vote off existing council members and/or volunteer to do their jobs. The current background noise is, in itself quite destructive.

Anyhow, I have digressed from the original topic which we should revert to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Austin said:

Just so everyone is aware with all the hat wearing accusations. The MYA council currently have no one that is also part the IMCA and ITCA which has been the case well before this release.

Hi Austin,

A quick look over the personnel within IRSA from the following link may show some familiar names. Click on the various roles from the menus on the right hand side once in.

https://www.radiosailing.org/about

Now if we take a look at both the International Class Associations for the Marblehead and Ten Rater and see if any of those same names are familiar?

http://www.marbleheadclass.org/foundation-ec

http://www.tenrater.org/foundation-ec

Now if we cross check these against each other, and then against our MYA executive, am I not right in suggesting numerous hats are being worn? 

Both International class websites have had no updates since their formation in May. MYA and other NCA’s have representatives through multiple levels wearing multiple hats and the first news to reach owners is after the fact?

Yes our representatives give their time but when so many posts are filled (some might say pursued), with so little transparency, you have to ask what are the motives?

As suggested by Graham E above, I would have thought class promotion would be a better use of people’s time as I imagine World Sailing May laugh at lofty aspirations from a class that can’t get double figures to a Nationals.

Cheers

Brad
 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator
4 minutes ago, Brad Gibson said:

Hi Austin,

A quick look over the personnel within IRSA from the following link may show some familiar names. Click on the various roles from the menus on the right hand side once in.

https://www.radiosailing.org/about

Now if we take a look at both the International Class Associations for the Marblehead and Ten Rater and see if any of those same names are familiar?

http://www.marbleheadclass.org/foundation-ec

http://www.tenrater.org/foundation-ec

Now if we cross check these against each other, and then against our MYA executive, am I not right in suggesting numerous hats are being worn? 

Both International class websites have had no updates since their formation in May. MYA and other NCA’s have representatives through multiple levels wearing multiple hats and the first news to reach owners is after the fact?

Yes our representatives give their time but when so many posts are filled (some might say pursued), with so little transparency, you have to ask what are the motives?

As suggested by Graham E above, I would have thought class promotion would be a better use of people’s time as I imagine World Sailing May laugh at lofty aspirations from a class that can’t get double figures to a Nationals.

Cheers

Brad

Hi Brad,

Unfortunatley those website have not been updated to reflect the changes that have taken place so give the wrong impression. Not much we can do as it has been asked of them to amend thier websites as far as I know. Just pointing out that dispite what those websites are showing they are incorrect.

Its always possible that some council positions may be pursued but I still say the membership has its oportunity to vote every year and change it if thats what they believe or they are not happy.

Myself I am dissapointed to see just a few entries for the 10R Nats at this point in time. At the end of the day its up to those of us with Tens to support the class by entering. I can think of worse things to be doing than racing a Ten at a great venue like Keighly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 20/09/2021 at 12:17, Gavin Watson said:

Any comment from the MYA's International Officer?

It is not for the International Officer to comment or have a view only to put the information before the members and gather THEIR views (as has been made abundantly clear by some members on previous occasions.). You will note that the information from ITCA/IMCA was sent out on 19th Sept 2021 and was passed by me to the MYA DCO and the web operators of both the M and 10 websites the same day with a request to publish it to the membership ASAP. I can do no more.

Once everyone has had an opportunity to air their views I will forward them to the IMCA/ITCA secretaries as a collective GBR view.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Phil I am a little staggered by this I’m afraid.

In wearing the international officers hat of the MYA and given this behind the curtains move by both the M and 10r international class newly formed groups of which you are a part of, is this not a place for a balanced point of view?

Should our officer not be presenting both sides to inform the owners/membership?

If not then we can only conclude that not only yourself, but other mya officials within those class associations are for these changes. Given an approach has already been made to World Sailing for application outside of IRSA, is this not a case of the horse already bolting?  Why are we being asked now for views or is this another case of the modern trend of lip service, then press on regardless.

Phil, as our International Officer would it be too much to remind other committees you work within that they represent boat owners/members at all levels and not just themselves.

The MYA is not alone in this, other NCAs have been equally ignored by the actions of those within these newly formed associations. That, as reported by Austin above that such new groups that have reportedly taken startup money from IRSA can’t even keep an accurate list of officialdom, how can they make such decisions without owner/member input. There is no open forum or means to challenge these officials so sadly this forum is the only place to take them to task.

It’s really quite simple. You have an idea. You take it to your owner/members you represent then move on it or squash it. You don’t shout down their views, you don’t treat them as whiners if they are not in line with yours, you don’t treat only your views as fact and other views as incorrect or less factual. You don’t belittle those with opposing views to the point of disenfranchising.

You listen, to those you represent and work for their interests, not your own.

If the above is too difficult for any official at any level in a past time of model boating please do us all a favour……

Thankfully a large majority who work tirelessly in running our sport do so for the right reasons, and we thank them wholeheartedly.

Edited by Brad Gibson
Addition
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 20/09/2021 at 09:46, Brad Gibson said:

At present we have our MYA controlling the 4 International IRSA classes at UK National level, yet reluctant to allow classes to control themselves, thus retaining control.

Hi Brad

A common misconception which I would like to correct.

The  MYA has introduced COGs recently, overturning nearly 100 years of history.  It is a policy that has my enthusiastic support, and as far as I can see the support of the entire MYA Council, executive officers and district councillors alike.  As the co-opted Racing Officer, I've engaged with the classes in supporting them to define their racing calendar for 2022 rather than telling them what dates they can have.  I've engaged with the classes in asking them to take on the maintenance of their championship and ranking regs, their sailing instructions, and their notice of race templates.  There is no reluctance here to ask classes to take control for themselves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Lester Gilbert said:

Hi Brad

A common misconception which I would like to correct.

A valid effort Lester, but given some of us actually took the time to push hard for class independence/less restrictions a few years back, I am quite aware of just what control some classes can control, and what control is held over them.

Are any of our four International Class COGs allowed to act as NCAs or does the MYA retain that role?
Are any of our four International Class COGs allowed to determine their own Technical issues regarding rules or do these come under the control of the MYA Technical Officer?

The above are but two of many areas in which our International Classes are controlled by the MYA, as you well know and it is within this context my previous comments were made within this thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As you well know, Brad, historically the MYA acts and has acted as the NCA for these classes.  As you also well know, the MYA is currently trying to move class responsibilities to COGs.  In due course I expect those COGs that wish to will accept the responsibility to act as the NCA for their class, and I expect that the MYA will delegate or transfer NCA responsibilities to those COGs.  I also expect that not all COGs will want this responsibility, in which case the MYA will have to continue to act as the class NCA.  As you well know, this is currently an on-going process that has only started recently, and much needs to be settled before a COG can act as an NCA, not only with the MYA but with the relevant international associations.

Edited by Lester Gilbert
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Any views on the actual topic of the post Lester as an ex Chairman of IRSA and ex Chairman of IOMICA?

An opinion on what levels of governance International class COGs within the MYA may or may not be granted sometime in the future is maybe a discussion suited elsewhere and hardly relevant to what we know in the current state. No doubt all members will be kept informed on what is ‘expected’ to happen on that one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I feel free so would like to ask a few questions if I may.

What are the names of the foundation executives and who voted them in place?

Applications for the two classes have been made to WS and this was voted on and agreed unanimously by the foundation Exec, was anyone else in the World that sails in these classes asked to vote? Or even any input/discussion outside of the foundation?

The right to hold World Championships not linked to IRSA regs, IRSA regs allow each class to hold a World and Continental Championship biennial at the moment, do the founder exec plan on more events if part of WS?

£1000 joining fee and several hundred pound membership for each class, how much is several hundred pound, £200 or £900 each year? This membership could cost £3800 to start up, is this money coming from IRSA to begin with?

At present IRSA allow costs for representation from an official from IRSA and another official from the ICA to be present at World Championships, is this representation, but only one from the NCA, going to be continued?

To sum up, what exactly is the advantage of this application because to me it looks like a highly costly affair to get 2 seats on the top table. At present it is the IOM class that is the main contributor to the IRSA and I just want to know how the 2 classes plan to raise finances each year to cover the costs. Please remember this, we have 4 entries to the 2021 GBR Nationals...

Edited by Graham Elliott
1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I cannot answer all of Grahams questions but I can offer some insight as an outside observer.   For a number of years elements within IRSA have been pushing both the Marbleheads and the Ten Raters to form their own International Class Associations.  My understanding there have been 2 arguments for this on the basis that any class which cannot do so does not deserve 'International' status and that IRSA should not be administering these classes just overseeing them and ensuring 'standards' are met.  There have been skipper and interested parties meetings at the last few World Championships with a view to progressing this through a volunteer/nominated working party/executive.  I was present at Garda when this was attempted but the working party formed collapsed.  A later meeting was successful.  The foundation executives initial role was to drawer up a constitution. Get the association registered as a charitable organisation and resolve its status with IRSA (now Associate members of IRSA see news item on IRSA website).  (The latter involved negotiations with regards to a startup grant. I understand based on the profits from the last few World Championships paid to IRSA.) The two Associations formed are registered in Switzerland and the detail of their constitution, initial foundation executives, and foundation member NCA's are listed on these websites at http://www.tenrater.org/ and http://www.marbleheadclass.org.  Note:(these websites have not been updated since May so do not reflect the fact that Phil Holliday resigned some time ago from his roles with IRSA, ITCA and IMCA and has had no part in the recent decisions of the remaining foundation executive.)

The question  that remains to be answered is if the International Class Association is to carry out all the administration of the class in respect of Technical matters and class rules as well as finding places to hold and run continental and World Championships.  What does IRSA do for them? It controls approval of their decisions in respect of class rule changes and and in particular when and where they can hold championships 'represents' them at World Sailing and takes a large cut of the proceeds of any championship it approves.

It should also be noted that the International Class Associations are, as with IRSA, not individual 'owner/certified owner' membership organisations.  The membership of these organisations is NCA's who have the votes.  In the case of the UK the NCA is the MYA.  The MYA however has for a number of years now had a similar policy as IRSA that classes should take more responsibility for their own organisation with a view to those that wish to eventually having a sufficiently robust organisation to become NCA's.  Hence the foundation COG frameworks and the progress to each class taking as much responsibility as it feels able to start this process and the MYA seeking views before responding to the latest communication from the ICA's.

p.s there are now more entries for the Ten Nationals and still a week to go before entries close.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Solent, thanks for answering what you can.

Where you mention that IRSA take a large cut of the proceeds of a World Championship, do you know this is £15 per boat entered, I don't feel this is a large amount and you can bet your bottom dollar WS recognition will cost far more than this per boat, will WS also want each boat to be registered with them and a little sticker placed on the boat to say as much?

Please do not get the wrong impression of my posts, I hope this venture works out but just cannot endorse the way it has been brought about, zero transparency.

Up to 8 entered for the Nationals now, great lake for the 10's to stretch their legs on but feel I have done more to market the race in my forum posts than the whole of the foundation put together.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Darin Ballington said:

What must not be allowed to happen is that this discussion splits the UK fleet and leads to less participation closer to home as for the vast majority of owners this is something that they couldnt give two figs about...

 

 

Agree entirely Darin with your sentiment, though I imagine the UK and other fleet members or owners abroad WILL give two figs when WS (or the class associations on their behalf) say they are not eligible to enter any MYA or similar NCA body event without paying yearly subs to their class. This may not bother those pushing to dump IRSA, but it could certainly bother those that do not sail internationally that will be asked to kick the tin for zero benefit to them. I.e. club and regional racers.
These yearly subs to the associations will need to come from somewhere, and like full size racing, it will be every owner that takes the hit, not the precious few.

That this side of the debate is not shared asks only more questions as to why the push to split a combined power base within WS of presently four international classes as IRSA, to a pocket of interests pulling in different directions? That current serving members of IRSA are involved in this push to split it, requires a good deal more transparency and balanced view than what is being offered if they want support.

Given some comments above, if we use the case that classes get nothing from IRSA, then add to that a view that the MYA ‘expect’ classes to eventually govern themselves as their own NCA, then are we not only signing off on IRSA but also that of the MYA? 

Edited by Brad Gibson
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think we are aligned in our concerns Brad, however, my view is that the conversations should be about what the ICA is trying to achieve rather than the people involved.

If I were WS I would want to know what the IMCA/ITCA is bringing to the table that is different to the IRSA?

If it is only cash then the IMCA/ITCA members should be very wary; personally I dont see what the group brings to WS that the IRSA doesnt already cover at this time and would need to be convinced of the long term sustainablility of the ICA. Not a dig at those involved at the moment as everything has to start somewhere but I don't recall seeing any plans being published about growing the class, encouraging owners to get involved or how the owners can get involved to make the ICA work.

The statement sent out notes a lot of technical reasons why the proposal is a good idea, but nowhere does it mention that it will make the class better or allow more people to attend events. If the main objective is to free up spaces within the calendar for IRSA events then it should be up to IRSA to argue for more from WS, not take the IMCA/ITCA and make them fight on their own. 

What I would like to see as an owner is a strong class at all levels that encourages me and others to get our M's and 10's on the water, travel locally, nationally and international to races with mates and competitors; this doesnt need to have lots of rules, regulations and tie ups. Rather than pushing from the top down, I would like the NCAs to be strong and pushing upwards requesting support from the ICA, looking for more help and advice, more events, more involvement with the class regulations.

That is the time when looking to be independent from other radio sailing classes makes sense.

This may sound at odds with what I have been involved in during my role on the MYA council but its worth pointing out that the MYA COG (Class Cwners Group) principle was to allow owners and skippers more freedom to promote their own classes not necessarily cast them adrift or push them down a Class Association route which they did not want.

If I were to be asked to vote at this moment in time I would vote against this proposal.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Darin, agree with you except the bit that says 'if I were to be asked to vote'.

Applications in and being discussed in October WS meeting.

IRSA already made the transfer of funds which I am sure will alarm everyone.

NO DISCUSSION, NO VOTE.

Bloody disgraceful behaviour.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well stated Darin.
I too would like to know more about this, in a more open and transparent way and not through a one sided push. When such a push  comes from within newly formed group/S with little, to no input or dialogue with wider ownership/NCA memberships, are we not entitled to ask for a motive? Individuals are usually behind such if the past guides us…

Given the crossover of some officials within class associations, IRSA and a number of NCAs, I believe there is more to this than we are being (or not being) told. If there was a balanced argument for and against with motives and fact then there would be far less reason to be sceptical.

Surely the priority for both class associations is returning to well attended race meetings through promotion and well set racing calendars at welcoming, suitable venues, made possible by engaging with your ownership across the world that you represent?

I too am against such a move away from the strength of a combined IRSA at this time. Our newly formed international classes (M and 10R) are simply not strong enough in numbers or structure, nor openly engaging with their ownership for this to go well. Our sport has had enough upheavals in recent times through ‘enforced’ change, rule disputes and ongoing disruption from the pandemic. Do we need to add to this?

Just maybe it’s time a few put the constitutions, rule books and hats away and went sailing for some perspective. Maybe start at a club race…..

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

From Darin - This may sound at odds with what I have been involved in during my role on the MYA council but its worth pointing out that the MYA COG (Class Cwners Group) principle was to allow owners and skippers more freedom to promote their own classes not necessarily cast them adrift or push them down a Class Association route which they did not want.

I was one of Darin's colleagues on Council putting together the simple draft Class Owners Group frameworks for these classes after the success of the 36" COG created in 2017 to get owner agreement to the rule change freeing up the mast construction.

I totally agree with you that the intention was for owners to make their own decisions under the gentle guidance of the MYA Council. Apart from the Free Sailing COG formed properly in 2018, where the most important thing has been contacting class owners to get their views, this initiative was not taken seriously by the MYA in those intervening years until promoted this year in a more bureaucratic and overbearing approach which has not gone down well nor accepted by the few owners who have heard about it.

Currently radio sailing is at a low ebb after the effect of the pandemic has been to reduce the enthusiasm for the sport and what is needed above everything else is to regenerate the enthusiasm for sailing Marbleheads and 10 raters at club and local level and not to concern owners with the politics at the highest level, which with such small fleet numbers in so few nations appears to be totally unrealistic.

The attempt to break up the MYA and IRSA, which have served the sport well in the past is not good a good move now and needs to be treated carefully and at the appropriate time with more involvement from the owners concerned.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Roger Stollery said:

The attempt to break up the MYA and IRSA, which have served the sport well in the past is not good a good move now and needs to be treated carefully and at the appropriate time with more involvement from the owners concerned.

 

I dont think this is an attempt to break up anything, and suggesting so just dilutes the discussion.

This is about an ICA debating important matters on direction with its members.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, having been on both defunct websites it has the following names listed as the exec.

Marblehead.

Chair.....Phil Holiday

VC.......Selwyn Holland

Events.....Matteo Longhi

Tech.....Graham Bantock

Finance....Thomy Blatter

 

10r

Chair.....Selwyn Holland

VC......Phil Holiday

Events....Henning Faas

Tech....Gerd Mentges

Finance....Thomy Blatter

We have been told that Graham Bantock and Phil Holiday are no longer part of the exec, have they been replaced?

If not, that leaves 5 people on the exec of both organisations.

As Phil has pointed out, this application is the first he knew of it and he is the GBR point of contact, who was asked there oppinion on this matter outside these 5 people?

Edited by Graham Elliott
Q
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...