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Applying the correct score after tied results.


Michael Thomas
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I am the Club scorer for the IOM races we run under the RRS.

I use the Sailwave Race Management System to calculate race results using the Appendix A low points scoring system.

There are no Sailing Instructions or Notice of Race currently in place that changes the rules

A bit of an anomaly was thrown up after last Friday's racing, in fact this is the second time this year the same question has arisen.

The query is about tied scores after a discard has been applied when all scores are equal e.g. each of two competitors has scored 1 x 1st. 1 X 2nd. 1 x 3rd. 1 x 4th and 1 x 5th in a race consisting of 6 heats.  One competitor had a high score of 6th discarded and the other a high score of 8th discarded.

This gives equal points of 15 after the one discard. One of the two competitors whose discarded score of 6th was calculated by Sailwave to be placed second overall. The other was placed 3rd.

I'm not sure how this calculation came about as it is obviously incorrect but I didn't notice it at the time.

The third place competitor complained, quoting RRS A8.2 stating his final heat score was better than the other competitor and he should be awarded 2nd place. On looking at the rules it appeared to me that A8.2 is how to calculate tied scores at the end of a Series not the end of a Race and perhaps A7 giving each 2.5 points and joint second place is the correct answer.

Not knowing which to apply I have sought some advice but been given conflicting answers. 

One indicated that RRS A7 should be applied to the RACE result which would give both competitors 2nd place with 2.5 points each. 

The other indicated that RRS Rule 8.2 should be applied as in his opinion a number of races in a day is a series irrespective that the scores will be added to a longer series, therefore the competitor with the best score in the last heat should be awarded the 2nd place.

In the interest of fairness I wish to apply the correct scores as it may affect the overall series results. I think the answer may lay in the definitions of Race and Series but I'm not sure which to apply.

 

Many thanks Michael.

 

 

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Hi Michael

Terminology might be in the way here.  One of our "races" is usually made up from a number of heats if there are more than 20 boats or so;  if fewer than 20 boats then every race consists of one heat.  I'm thinking that your example comprised 6 races, each race comprising one heat.

What we call an "event" is usually made up of a number of races.  The racing rules of sailing generally talks about a "series" as being a number of races, and so this is what is taken to be an "event" in radio sailing.  I'm thinking that your example is an event with 6 races, constituting a series in the terms of the RRS.  RRS A7 applies to a particular radio sailing race, but not to the event.  RRS A8 applies to the event, and is sometimes called the "countback" rule.

There are no rules specifically which deal with what we might call a series, comprising a number of events.  The best that can currently be done is to score a series of radio sailing events as a series of series (!), that is, to apply A8 to the events as though they were races.

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Ignoring 'rules' for a moment: surely the basic 'splitter' should be "which of the two skippers finished in front of the other the most?".  If they both racked up the same number of '1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc places' which was furthest ahead of the other in those races?

At Club level where there is only ever one group of boats racing together, then each 'heat' is a race and the collection of races at each session (day) is an event - hence RRS A8 applies.

In most cases for a club a Series is the collection of events that take place throughout a sailing season to enable some sort of Trophy to be awarded at the end of a season.  For that series a sensible, easy to compute, solution is to make only a selected group of events to count towards the Trophy: an example might be "a skipper's best seven events from a series of twelve".  For that computation one can use a variation on the formulae used to compute the ranking event positions.  Using the 'half the number of events in a series plus one' calculation coupled with a ranking-like scoring guarantees that there will almost certainly be an absolute winner.  Over a season where different numbers of yachts appear at each event the 'ranking-like' scores will ensure that even the most closely matched two or three skippers will get slightly different contribution scores for any second, third, or other places for an event.  Only the first place will be consistent with 100 'points'.

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Thanks for you input guys. I have adopted Lester's explanation for the event that took place last Friday and adjusted the scores accordingly.

There is a lot of discussion online, both at home and abroad regarding the fairness of the "best in the last race" application of scoring ties and generally it is regarded as unfair except at the highest level of competition.

As the Club IOM Class Captain and IOM scorer I am drawing up a Notice of Race that amends slightly the RRS Appendix A low score system to suit our events and skill level of our members more fairly by changing the "best in the last race application" in the event that the countback rule does not resolve the issue to "take account of all scores including excluded scores" If scores are still tied then to award equal points to each.

Seems fair in a small club with vastly differing skill levels.

Regards Michael.

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7 hours ago, Mike Kemp said:

Ignoring 'rules' for a moment: surely the basic 'splitter' should be "which of the two skippers finished in front of the other the most?".  If they both racked up the same number of '1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc places' which was furthest ahead of the other in those races?

At Club level where there is only ever one group of boats racing together, then each 'heat' is a race and the collection of races at each session (day) is an event - hence RRS A8 applies.

In most cases for a club a Series is the collection of events that take place throughout a sailing season to enable some sort of Trophy to be awarded at the end of a season.  For that series a sensible, easy to compute, solution is to make only a selected group of events to count towards the Trophy: an example might be "a skipper's best seven events from a series of twelve".  For that computation one can use a variation on the formulae used to compute the ranking event positions.  Using the 'half the number of events in a series plus one' calculation coupled with a ranking-like scoring guarantees that there will almost certainly be an absolute winner.  Over a season where different numbers of yachts appear at each event the 'ranking-like' scores will ensure that even the most closely matched two or three skippers will get slightly different contribution scores for any second, third, or other places for an event.  Only the first place will be consistent with 100 'points'.

Thanks Mike.  Nice to see someone else agreeing with my system of discards "Using the 'half the number of events in a series plus one' calculation" (rounded down where necessary)   :-)

 

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16 hours ago, Michael Thomas said:

As the Club IOM Class Captain and IOM scorer I am drawing up a Notice of Race that amends slightly the RRS Appendix A low score system to suit our events and skill level of our members more fairly by changing the "best in the last race application" in the event that the countback rule does not resolve the issue to "take account of all scores including excluded scores" If scores are still tied then to award equal points to each.

Would it be more appropriate to have a set of Club Sailing Instructions, this could have all of the local rules for club racing and then all club events would be covered by these.

The MYA SSIs are a good start but probably OTT for general club sailing, however writing your own SI's is simple and the guide on the World Sailing website straight forward.

Cheers

Darin

 

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Hi Darren. Good to hear from you.

Yes SI's is something we are working on at the moment. I'm still relatively new to RS having come from yacht racing where SI's and NOR were normal practice. Should solve a lot of problems and to include the terminology used in Radio sailing.

In response to earlier quotes about discards. I'm not a great lover of too many discards in a series especially at club level. It does not promote good support for the club by regular attendance and tends to benefit the best skippers who can win a series without the commitment of taking part in most of the races. In fact Appendix A default is only one worst score to be discounted.

I would like to end this discussion here as I have the information I need.

Thanks to you all. Michael

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