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Rights if you sail the wrong side of a mark


John949
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If you accidentally sail the wrong side of a mark, what rights do you have when returning to sail the right side of it?  A case ocurred the other day where a boat returning to sail the right side came into conflict with a boat that had correctly rounded the mark.  The boats were on the same tack and the returning boat was to leeward and wanted to luff the other boat above her proper course in order to sail round the mark.  Looking at Rule 23.2 I believe it rests on whether you believe the returning boat is sailing her proper course when she is returning to the mark.  If she is sailing her proper course then Rule 11 applies and the windward boat must keep clear.  If she is deemed not to be sailing her proper course then it gets a bit murky with the new wording of rule 23.2 as what does 'reasonably practicable mean'  In this case the returning boat would have had to gybe round about 270 degrees in order to pass behind the other boat. 

In a similay vein, what about mark room if you accidentally sail inside a downwind mark and tack to go back and round it correctly?  Obviously you have to keep clear while tacking but once you have completed the tack, are you still entitled to mark room from boats which were clear astern when you entered the zone (and you haven't left it)?

There is obviously an argument that if you've made a mistake then you shouldn't interfere with someone who hasn't, but I can't see anything in the rules that limits your rights.  I also belive that the definition of proper course is the fastest route from where you are now to the next mark.  Whether or not you took the fastest route to get to that point is not relevant.

Would someone like to explain to me why I'm wrong?

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Hi John,

it always helps to provide a diagram. I have made one that I think represents your incident.

The answer is that Green has broken no rule (ie did not hit mark and was not doing a penalty turn). so it is her proper course that counts. Green's proper course is to come up to close hauled to get back to the mark and Yellow as windward must keep clear. R 23.2 and R 11.

On your second question, once the returning boat tacks (or leaves the zone), the original mark room ends. R 18.2(d)

 

boat misses mark.JPG

John Ball

IOM CAN 307 (V8)

In my private capacity

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John,

Thanks for the reply.  I would have drawn a diagram if I could have drawn as pretty a one as you have: what did you use to draw it?

Yes your diagram captures the incident though it was a bit more spread out.  Green went further past the mark before returning and yellow did a wide in close out rounding.

I'm still not sure about some aspects of the downwind case so I'll have another think about it and maybe draw some diagrams.

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The diagramming program is called 'boats.exe' It is available for free download from

http://boats.sourceforge.net/

It has a short learning curve, but overall is easy to use.

 

You wrote for your second question

in a similay vein, what about mark room if you accidentally sail inside a downwind mark and tack to go back and round it correctly?  Obviously you have to keep clear while tacking but once you have completed the tack, are you still entitled to mark room from boats which were clear astern when you entered the zone (and you haven't left it)?

To enlarge on my previous answer, as you tacked in the zone, any existing mark room expires. As you are in the zone after the tack, and another boat enters the zone, R 18.2(a) will apply , as 18.2(b) does not apply. So as you become overlapped the inside boat gains mark room.

John

John Ball

IOM CAN 307 (V8)

In my private capacity

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Hi again John,

Here is a diagram for your second question re missing the downwind mark.

Here Yellow enters the zone clear ahead of Green and Red and is entitled to mark room R 18.2(b). However she turns short of the mark and circles back, passing head to wind at P4. At that point the previous mark room ends. However when Green enters the zone and become overlapped inside Yellow by P5, R 18.2(a) applies and Yellow gives mark room to Green.

Red also enters the zone already overlapped with Green and gives Green mark room (18.2(b) and becomes overlapped outside Yellow by P5 and has to give mark room to Yellow R 18.2(a).

John

missing downwind mark.JPG

John Ball

IOM CAN 307 (V8)

In my private capacity

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Thanks for clarifying this John.  I think I've got it.  At point 4 yellow does have an inside overlap but she is still in the process of tacking so mark room doesn't apply.  At point 5 she has completed her tack but now green is inside her, so green is entitled to mark room on yellow.

The one aspect I'm still a unertain of is whether this is a'seamlike manoeuvre.  Almost by definition missing the mark is not a seamlike manoeuvre so just how much room do the other boats have to give.  In your diagram above, at position 5, yellow and red are almost pointing at each other.  Just how much can red assume about yellow's future course and if there is contact is red at fault for not giving enough room or is yellow at fault for not performing a seamanlike manoeuvre?  I think red should try her hardest to give yellow room but could protest yellow if she believed yellow took her way wide of the mark.  Is that right?  

My understanding (and it;s written in the rules) is that you should avoid collisions if at all possible i.e. avoid the collision first and then protest if you think you've been wronged.  I'm new to radio sailing and I'm rather disappointed about how much contact there is.  Sure it's difficult to judge distances and angles at times but doesn't that mean you should take less risk? Nine times out of ten it's faster to avoid the collision, even if you're in the right, rather than get tangled up with another boat.  When I used to sail dinghies it was the norm to go through an entire regatta without hitting anybody.  With radio sailing it seems that at times I struggle to get through a race wihout some contact.

I've had a play with boat scenario and it does draw pretty diagrams.  Not the most intuitive interface.  They key is to understand that the inset modes work like toggles - you have to press the button again to stop it drawing more marks / boats.  Pressing delete with nothing selected seems to close the program without warning or saving anything - not an endearing feature!

 

 

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Hi John

As a newish RC sailor, have you visited my rules and tactics site - it may help

https://sites.google.com/site/johnsrcsailingrulesandtactics/

As you your comment about 'seamanlike', that only kicks in when 'room' comes into play - eg when an ROW boat alters course, does the keep clear boat have 'room'? So when Yellow alters course to circle back, does she give room for a keep clear boat? It appears Yes, as drawn.

Once Yellow gains mark room over Red, under R 18.2(a) she would be exonerated for any breach as long as she is sailing within the room permitted by her proper course - and that include room to avoid Green.

John

 

 

 

John Ball

IOM CAN 307 (V8)

In my private capacity

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