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John Ball

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Posts posted by John Ball

  1. Just my opinion.

    I think the correct penalty for W and for L is BFD.

    I don't see any grounds for a PC to reverse the BFD for the leeward boat. There may be a case for a boat that was forced over early by another boat that was breaking a rule, but in this example L was ROW.

    Even if a PC found some grounds to change the decision for L (who would still have to comeback and restart or she is OCS and has not sailed the course), there are a list of grounds for redress, and non seem to apply here.

    If two boats are just rafted together, they are not entangled as they can sail apart just by the actions of wind, water, sails and rudder ( a parallel example is a dinghy that has tipped over and may self-right - she is not considered disabled).



  2. HI Terry,

    I think the answer is 'No'.

    (c) is to cover a boat that has not yet rounded all the marks or is a leg behind, but crosses the line while sailing to the next mark.


  3. 8 hours ago, John949 said:

    I seem to remember that years ago starboard did have ROW but it was changed to avoid situations like this and because of the difficulty in deciding which gybe the other boat is on - don't forget that the gybe is decided by where the wind is coming from not which side the boom is on.  I remember a few cases of people running by the lee on port whilst yelling starboard.

    Almost - but not quite correct. Here is the definition and note than when sailing directly downwind or by the lee, the leeward side is where the boom is.


    Leeward and Windward A boat’s leeward side is the side that is or, when she
    is head to wind, was away from the wind. However, when sailing by the lee or
    directly downwind, her leeward side is the side on which her mainsail lies. The
    other side is her windward side.

  4. HI Terry,

    The answer is in the preamble to Part 2 of the RRS, which says that certain rules place a limitation or obligation on a ROW boat.

    A boat has right of way over another boat when the other boat is
    required to keep clear of her. However, some rules in Sections B, C
    and D limit the actions of a right-of-way boat.

    The ROW rules are in Section A, but the rules in sections B, C and D may limit the actions of a ROW boat. Mark Room is in Section C.

    So while the stbd gybe boat has ROW over Port, under R 10, if Post has gained mark room under R 18.2(b) then STBD has to give room for port to sail to and around the mark, including room to gybe.

    There are a couple of additional factors to consider.

    As this is a gate mark, R18.4 does not apply.

    If this were a beat to windward, then R18 is turned off for boats on opposite tacks. But as this is a run, R 18 applies and places the restriction on the ROW boat.



  5. I think I have updated all the chapters which provided links to the RRS, Case and Call Books. If you find any that do not work, please post a reply here.

    It was a lot of work to go through all the chapters looking for the links, so I have changed my approach. In places where there was a link to a WS document, I have changed it to link to my web site's Racing Rules Reference Documents page.
    On that page, I link to the WS Rules page where you may scroll down and find the appropriate document.

    This way, if WS change the links again, I only have to update the links on this one page. It is probably less convenient for you, but it should work.


  6. It appears that World Sailing has changed some web site addresses, so the links in my web site chapters do not work at the moment.

    I have updated the links on the Racing Rules References page,


    but it will take a few days to go through and edit my source text and resave and upload the revisions.

    In the mean time here is the new link to the WS web page to access the RRS, ERS, Case and Call Books.



  7. Hi John 949.

    You also asked a different question in your post from above.

    I also struggle with what happens if yellow establishes the overlap inside the zone.  Rule 18 says that yellow must give green mark room, but how do you give mark room to a boat on your outside?  I'm pretty sure that the intention is that yellow loses her Rule 11 rights if she doesn't establish an overlap before green enters the zone - I just don't think the rule is very well written to convey that.

    What I think you are asking is what happens if Yellow establishes an overlap from astern but inside the zone. Putting this another way should make it clear - if Yellow established the overlap in the zone, then Green must have been clear ahead when she reached the zone - so Green is entitled to mark room 18.2(b) and (c). So Yellow should avoid getting inside Green, so that Green can pass close to the mark.


  8. Hi John949.

    The answer to your first question is covered in the WS Call Book for Radio Sailing Call B10

    which says in part

    As the windward boat, W has an obligation to keep clear under rule 11 throughout
    the incident. The boats are overlapped when they enter the 4-lengths zone and, from
    that moment, W is required by rule 18.2(b) to give mark-room to L. However, L is
    unable to fetch the mark and is not entitled to room to tack in order to pass the mark
    on the required side. Therefore W's only obligation is to keep clear, which she does.
    Neither boat breaks a rule.
    After W rounds the mark, the boats are on different legs and both are required by rule
    23.2 not to interfere with each other, except when sailing their proper course.
    However, while the boats remain on the same tack, W must continue to keep clear of
    L under rule 11. This applies even if W is sailing her proper course. If L causes W to
    alter course, L interferes with a boat sailing on another leg and she breaks rule 23.2.


    The answer to your second question - does inside boat lose R 11 rights - the answer is definitely NO. 

    See the preamble to Part 2 on the RRS which says


    A boat has right of way over another boat when the other boat is
    required to keep clear of her. However, some rules in Sections B, C
    and D limit the actions of a right-of-way boat.


    The ROW rules are in Part 2, Section A. They are R10 through R 13. They always apply. However some  of the other rules of Part 2 may require a ROW boat to give room or mark room  - so they do not turn off ROW but may restrict the action of the ROW boat.


  9. John949 asks above

    Is rule 18 actually relevant here?  Isn't the situation covered by Rule 11 W/L and Rule 13 Tacking?  How fast yellow is allowed to luff is governed by Rule 17.

    Hi John,

    Yes - absolutely R18.2(b) applies here as drawn. Yes, Green has to keep clear under R 11, but one important aspect of being granted Mark Room, is that you are exonerated under R 43 if you break R16.1 or 17, as long as you are sailing within your proper course to the mark. - That could include luffing up to head to wind to squeeze around the mark.

    You are also correct that if Yellow passes head to wind, she loses her R 18 rights, and is now tacking, and subject to R13. But this is not as drawn - note Yellow has not passed head to wind.


  10. Hi Trevor

    As you gain experience, you will recognize that you are going to be in trouble with other boats as you approach the mark, especially if you are to the left side of the course. Yes, get to the right and get above the lay line six to ten boat lengths from the mark. If there are other boats on the lay line, hold high, but if there is a gap, you can reach off towards the mark with speed.

    You may find my web site, Chapter 3 R18 and the WIndward Mark useful - especially the first few pages which cover setting up for the mark..



  11. Hi Trevor,

    Below is a generic diagram that shows the problem for the leeward boat, Yellow.

    The rules that apply are 18.2(b) and 18.2(d), plus R 11.

    The two boats enter the zone, overlapped on stbd, and Green has to keep clear R11 W/L, and as Yellow is inside boat, is entitled to mark room 18.2(b). She may luff up to try to head reach around the mark, and in order to give that mark room, Green must stay clear. In the diagram, I show Yellow luffing and Green responding

    However, mark room for Yellow ends if she passes head to wind R18.2(d). At this point she becomes the keep clear boat.

    So bottom line, Yellow cannot ask for room to tack. She is stuck, below the lay line and can either slow down and then tack behind Green, or bear away and gybe around - her choice.



    Not laying the mark.jpg

  12. 8 hours ago, Derek Priestley said:

    Also agreed Mike, but................  if you have been stationary flapping for 40 secs a boat length from the line.  and a boat arriving early bears away and runs into you I would argue that you have given that boat plenty of room & opportunity!!!

    Hi Derek,

    I am trying to imagine what you mean here - if a boat bears away and runs into you - they have probably broken R 11 (W/L) and there is no requirement for you to give them any room or opportunity.



  13. Hi Brad and Derek,

    This is a great question and it applies to any country. I think the answer for IOM is in the IOM Class Rules. It would be valid if the MNA granted a certificate, otherwise, NO, must be measured by an MNA appointed measurer.



    (a) Except where sails are certified as in (b) the official measurer shall certify
    sails in the tack and shall date each with the date of certification control.
    (b) An MNA may appoint one or more persons at a sailmaker to certify sails
    produced by that manufacturer. A special licence shall be awarded for that
    International One Metre Class Rules 202

  14. Hi Rohan,

    I have created a couple of diagrams - the overlap starts as soon as the bow of Green reaches a line drawn square off the transom of Yellow.

    In the upper diagram, the overlap at P2 is too close - even to the point that as Green moves forward and Yellow sheets in her sails to start to respond, Green could be trapped by the boom of Yellow.

    In the lower diagram, it looks like room is given. A hail of 'stay up' is quite appropriate.

    If Yellow does not respond, then hail protest at the time of the incident. For more info on how to protest, see Chapter 7. The Protest.


    Sufficient room.pdf

  15. Hi Rohan,

    the rules to read are 11, 12, 15, and 16.1. R17 does not apply before the start.

    You may find Chapter 2 STarts on my web site useful


    When a boat is sitting just below the line and another boat approaches from astern, the boat astern has to keep clear. R12.

    When the approaching boat establishes a leeward overlap from astern, the rule changes and R11 applies and the now windward boat must keep , however as ROW changed, the windward boat initially must have room to keep clear R15. Once room has been given and as R 11 applies, W must keep clear, but if L wants to luff up a bit to push W over, then R16.1 applies as L with ROW changes course and again W must be given room.



  16. Hi Ian,

    The concept of 'advantage' comes up in taking penalties. Running aground is not against the rules - so no penalty implication.

    When refloating a boat, you may not give it a strong push, as that would break R 42 Propulsion.

    If a boat is able to take a risky path and cut a corner and risk running aground, but a quick recovery gets the boat back into the race with an advantage, then that is a race management issue, and the RC needs to think about how the course is set, and maybe declare an area as an obstruction (no-go).


  17. Hi Michael,

    the boat is only disabled while she is aground. Once she has been released, she is no longer disabled and may continue to race.

    There is no rule that says that once you are disabled, you must retire, except for the hail of 'out of control'


  18. Hi Michael,

    pushing off your own boat is not outside help - so no rule is broken. See E3.1

    Yes, the boat is disabled, so the RC may help (E4.2(c)) by sending a rescue to relaunch or even by directing another party (who becomes an extension of the RC) to help.




  19. While john949 describes a protest hearing, John Taylor's problem is that the umpire made a decision and awarded a penalty.

    Usually regattas that use Umpires are set up as 'no appeal' against a decision of the umpire. So John has no recourse.

    However, if the Umpire recognises that they made an error - they can notify the  RC under 62.1 as an error or omission. Then the RC may call a request for redress under 60.2

    Then a redress hearing may consider the events and make a new determination.


  20. Hi John,

    cannot comment on your scenario, but here is what I think should happen.

    One boat hails Protest. The incident is not seen by an observer, nor the Umpire. The other boat does not take a penalty. The umpire cannot make a decision as they have no facts. The umpire has only a short time to react - and with no facts, should hail 'No Decision'.

    What you have is an 'unresolved incident' and that should go to a protest hearing.

    Here is a link to the IRSA Addendum Q for Umpired Racing.


    This document is being replaced by a new World Sailing document called 'Test Rule for Umpired Radio Sailing'.

    I am not sure what its publication status is, but the essential actions are the same in each document.





  21. 3 hours ago, Bill Jones said:

    Can anyone recommend a club scoring programme such as Sailwave where the programme throws the worst scores etc and members can view at home the championship scores week by week we want something simple where we put in the scores and the computer does the rest.


    This is how we do our scoring. It is a two part process. We score the weekly race day as normal. We run a second copy for the series, where the top boat for race day 1 is scored first, and so on , then next week become Race 2.

    The program we use is called Afleet ( from NZ), and it runs on an Android phone or tablet and is designed for RC sailing.


    The current version is for just one fleet, but the beta version (available by special request) supports a multi-fleet hms style scoring. Both work fine and are easy to use. You can output the results as a pdf and transfer to a shared google drive, or upload to your local club web site.

    It is quite fully featured, for redress, dnf, dsq etc, and discards can be customised, but default to after 4,8, and every 8 thereafter.




  22. The rule 16.1 is the easy part - Yes, when a ROW boat alters course, it must give 'room'.

    Room is defined as room to avoid in a seaman-like manner.

    Seaman-like is described in WS Case 103 as room for an experienced but not expert crew.

    The WS Call Book for Radio Sailing  General Principles #1 through 4 and especially, #3 also says that while an RC boat can manouver faster, you still have to allow time for the skipper to see what is happening, and to decide that an action is to be taken, and then start to take it.

    So while the rule part is easy, establishing the facts to apply the rule is harder. we are hearing only one side of the incident, and you say 'quarter of meter, and alters course sharply'.

    If those facts are established by a Protest Committee, it sounds reasonable to find that sufficient room was not given.


  23. 12 hours ago, GaRRy said:

    I think the bigger issue here is that I believe the rules say both sails need to made out of the same material ?

    Not quite - the IOM class rules require that the panels of an individual sail be of the same material (ply) , but you may use different material for main and jib.



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