Erick Brunswick
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Posts posted by Erick Brunswick
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Mark,
I would not loose any sleep over it.
We both know that the converse is true i.e. A good boat sailed by a bad skipper will do badly.
One is reminded of that song by Page & Plant 1970
/Oooo and it make me wonder / - being but one line
/There's a lady who's sure/ all that glitters is gold/ being the opening line
Now that's got me started and I will play it five times tonight or until my fingers will bleed. Think of it while you are sailing on Sunday but the tempo might be a bit slow until the third part
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Replying to Igor Harlamov
One is not certain what your point is or indeed the point of your post is.
I most defiantly wrote/stated earlier 11.10.2016 that 'you can insure yourself against anything' BUT I did not state that you cannot insure yourself against deliberate and determined action of the part of the insured since this is really self evident.
From what I read :-
You clearly have or had a Contractual Issue with a Builder / Supplier of a Motor Yacht. You chose to make public inflammatory remarks in order to force a settlement.
This is ' deliberate and determined action of the part of the insured ' and in doing so your lay yourself open to Civil Libel Action regardless of the media chosen.
The Disclaimer contained in the Blog is irrelevant since you clearly wrote both the Post and the Disclaimer. The Disclaimer in this instance can only indemnify the Web-site not those who post on it, YOU.
Now you have a potentially expensive problem and it is probably too late to publish a retraction. By providing a link to this forum, blog you are clearly attempting to widen your audience still inflaming a volatile situation.
Protecting yourself against dispute arising from poor quality, patent or latent defect of a non-serial product manufacture on your behalf is simple if you follow some simple steps:-
1/ Investigate the supplier and inspect his premises beforehand and assure yourself he is who he is and does what he says he does
2/ Ensure the terms of Purchase / Sale are clear and acceptable to both parties before entering into Contract
3/ Ensure the Scope of Supply is clear and set-out in writing
4/ Ensure the standard to which the item or service must comply is clearly defined
5/ Inspect the goods before taking delivery or making any progress stage payments or setting the item into beneficial use
If a dispute arises
6/ Use a third-party Assessor / Surveyor to survey the craft and provide a written report
Its all too much trouble....
But I still wonder how this is related to Radio Controlled Yachts
Are you making a concerted effort to have any Civil Judgment go against you ?
I have several investment opportunities available for the discerning investor
a) a BRIDGE in Scotland
b) 450 k Hectare farm in Libya
c) Land Speed Record attempt car
.,.mmm..
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I noted a comment in this tread inferring that those sailing a 6 Metre were not prone to utilising such tactics and they were far more affable skippers.
Doris and I see the same faces appear at these Events sailing:-
DF65
DF94
6 Metre
IOM
And there is virtually no difference except for the speed and the ability to turn , tack and gybe.
Perhaps if the IOM Class was restricted to a 20mm wide rudder and half the sail area the approach might be similarly to a 6 metre
mnm
We are going to watch the 36" Nationals this coming Sunday. I understand the tea and cake is good there
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Another beautiful day two weeks ago and we , that is Doris and I, went to a different pond to watch the IOM boats sail in an open competition. These tend to be far more exciting and well worth the drive up the A##. Thanks to you fellows we now have a better idea of what is taking place.
And true to form the Hold you Course popped up from the same person we first encountered using this call some months ago but this time as a Post-incident CALL
1/ Boat A - Starboard -Tack running to the Mark about 20 metres away
2/ Boat B - Port-Tack beating away from the Mark.
3/ Boat B was on a collision course with Boat A ( or the converser )
4/ Boat A was sailing a reasonable course directly to the Mark
5/ Boat B, Port-Tack showed NOT inclination to avoid boat A, Starboard-Tack and
6/ When they had converged to about 2 metres between them Boat A swung to avoid what he clearly has determined to be an imminent collision.
7/ Boat B did not alter course at all during the whole sequence of events.
8/ Sadly and almost predictably they collided
the CALL from Boat B - Protest Boat A - You Altered Coarse.
Boat B even went as far as lodging a Protest convinced he was fully vindicated. We could not give evidence even though we were in the Control Area as we were not Racing.
I understand that in a magnanimous gesture Boat B withdrew his Protest - but was not penalised
Mmmmmmmm
We both thought - what a good tactic.
When in the wrong - Protest
Then in the spirit of Keeping thing going - Withdraw the Protest
The Race Officer is relieved had forgets that NO penalties were taken and the Incident goes Unresolved
Boat A was well put out of the Race and relegated to the next fleet.
Job done
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Fellas,
Far too many years ago, when I first took to the water in an Enterprise crafted with my very hands in my Fathers Garage there were but the Racing Rules of Sailing. You read them whilst you were waiting for the glue to set, you read them in between coats of paint and varnish and you read them again in the week in anticipation of the race on Saturday.
You did NOT read them to find loopholes, new way to undermine them, you read them so you would understand your OBLIGATIONS to other boats competing.
In fact one of the first things the rules state is that you accept the rules as they are. One should also note that the rules concentrate of defining the OBLIGATIONS of a Skipper not the RIGHTS of the Skipper.
A few really famous skippers, Paul Bert Elvstrøm in particular comes to mind, wrote good books explaining some aspects of the rules and provided really good diagrams transforming the written word into a three dimensional world. Crucially these publications were CRITICALLY reviewed by other famous skippers and then may have been reviewed by a panel elected by the International Sailing Federation. The names of the reviewers were proudly printed on the inner jacket of the book, I hold one such book in my hands as we speak.
THEN and ONLY then did it see the light of day. Care was taken NOT to attempt to extend what are relatively simple rules. Care was taken NOT to undermine the Rules or to attempt to cloud simple rules in mystique or to, most importantly, NOT to seek new meaning to what is written in the Official Publication.
Sadly with the advent of internet publishing is so easy to place work into the public domain, and even more sadly the body of much of work published in this way is flawed and has NOT been critically reviewed.
Darin makes the wise observation that the Racing Rules of Sailing were written for real Yachts with real people on board, the lives of which together with the safety of both cargo and vessel are in the hands of the skipper. But FAILS to explain that the skipper of 100 foot boat would never cross the bow of an approaching Starboard-Tack boat without a lot of sea between them.
These Rules were born out of the days of Clippers where owners would place heavy wagers on their boat docking first together with the International Collision Regulations.
If you examine the Port Starboard Rule 10, Rule 15 and Rule 16 you will note the fundamental that a vessel passing from your right to your left has right of way.
The Racing Rule of Sailing have developed over the past 150 years and the rule writers have been at pains to amended a lot of the Rules in the interest of safety.
The Rules do NOT support a game of Rock Paper Scissors.
The other half of the story of ‘ Hold You Course ‘ !
We asked the fellow why he hailed and why he believed implicitly in his right to collide with a Starboard Tack boat…
His reply was ....
OH that happened to me yesterday so I thought I would try it on someone else, who did it to someone else and on and on and on.
Fallacious Reasoning promulgated most likely from dubious Internet publications that have NOT been Critically Reviewed.
Sorry John.. Rule 16.1 and 16.2 are not HAILS they are REASON TO PROTEST AFTER you have avoided a collision.
In the Example I posted the Port-tack Boat HAILED when they were CONVERGING with Room to take avoiding action .
Your carless and misleading sketch shows the boats on a point of DIVERGENCE. You then applied Fallacious Reasoning in stating that a Port-tack boat is not required to Keep Clear if a Starboard-Tack Boat does anything but sail in a straight line.
That is NOT what is written in Rule 16.1 post hoc ergo propter hoc
Yachts do NOT sailing in Straight Lines, some make leeway some go to weather depending on the angle of heal and wind strength.
Deliberately tagging the Stern Quarter of the Port Tack Boat, your first example, is correct in term of Rule 16.1 IF and only IF the Starboard-tack boat goes above Close Hauled whilst on a Beat to Windward
Make sure there is a good/ generous margin to pass the bow of an approaching right of way boat. In the Example sketch I posed there was never any margin, they were always going to collide or at least a High Probability that they would.
The hail of HOLD YOUR COURSE is used by a Right of Way vessel
Sorry for the long and rather laborious post, and well done if you got this far.
??Erick
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That is a sad report.
Looking at Mark Dick's results on the Bourneville Web Site.. He seem to do ok against Britpops and a totally bonkers V9.
There seems to be two more there and I do believe that Sedici costs considerably more.
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I will get it ..The outcome is the same.. But that is NOT the issue
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The simulations
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Mike Barry John. Thank you
I am reminded of my student years and no doubt some of yours where horrible Greek and Latin terms were use, one being:-
post hoc ergo propter hoc, which means "after this, therefore because of this."
This refers to a fallacy in which the thinker confuses order with causality.
Simply stated, just because one incident precedes another it does not logically follow the one caused the other.
Fellas,
I am not struggling with the concept of Room or Keep Clear. I however am struggling with what might be described as a Fallacious Argument presented by John on the basis of a believe that :-
If a Starboard-Tack boat alters coarse he is obligated to Keep Clear. Rule 16.1 in no way states or implies this.
The sketch posted is grossly misleading. The point under discussion is :-
Port-Tack Boat is NOT taking any form of avoiding action but hails HOLD YOUR COURSE attempting to apply a ROCK PAPER SCISSORS approach.
Below are three REAL TIME SIMULATIONS. The boats start from the same point have the same constant speed. The circles are 2 boat lengths
Rule 10 obligates the Port-Tack boat to Keep Clear. This places the obligation firmly on the Port-Tack boat to be alert and to continuously evaluate the situation when attempting to cross the Ahead of the approaching boat.
The Starboard-Tack boat did not at any time restricted Port Tack boats ability to Keep Clear i.e. the
Port-tack boat has at all time room to alter Couse to avoid the collision but does not.
One concedes that if the Port-Tack boat altered coarse so as to pass Astern and the Starboard -tack boat Tacked , altered Coarse Bore-Away then Rule 16.1
However the ROCK PAPER SCISSORS approach i.e. R16.1 trumps Rule 10 and so one believes is a fallacy and dangerous
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John,
Again thank you .
However you are avoiding the central issue.
Let us go through it step by step for my benefit.
Is Rule 16.2 relevant... the boats are orthogonal, at 90 degrees to each other - NOT overlapped
So the answered must be NO
Rule 16.1 has relevance
And the question must be; did the port-tack boat have room to tack, pass astern or slow down in order to take avoiding action
- Yes
Once the two have fully converged there is NO room left for either
AND
By heading up a few point did the Starboard-Tack boat impeded the Port-Tack boat's ability to duck the starboard -tack boat
One could hold that by going up slightly the passage way astern was opened wider
The incident started long before the boats collided in that the port-tack boat was on port approaching a Starboard-Tack long before and could have taken avoiding action long before thy finally converged.
However if the Port-tack boat had or was taking avoiding action , not simply ignoring the situation as it manifested, and the Starboard-Tack boat changed heading then there MAY be some validity to your hypothesis.
( it would be useful if you numbered your chapters / figures )
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Again John, thank you,
Sadly there is always a but and this is the purpose of debate.
After most careful reading, there is no actual definition of Course.
As Darin points out, a Yacht on a beat is sailing on the wind i.e. Close-Hauled it's course is set by the wind not by compass bearing. One could reasonably state that by sailing on the wind Close-Hauled the boat is Sailing a Proper Course as defined.
One sincerely believes that altering course would be to alter course/ heading dramatically i.e. to Lull up hard to the point where the Headsail flapped, Tacked or Bore-Away. Not to Head-up by a few points to Starboard, sails Fully Drawing.
As Dave Alston has wrote on another Rule, the whole sentence must applied not selected bits of it. So what does rule 16.1 state:-
Rule 16.1
When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.
Nowhere does it state that the Right-of-Way boat shall Hold-Course does it ?
So all that one has is the definition of Room and Keep Clear to work with.
Keep Clear
A boat keeps clear of a right-of-way boat
(a) if the right-of-way boat can sail her course with no need to take avoiding action AND,
(b) when the boats are overlapped, if the right-of-way boat can also change course in both directions without immediately making contact.
Part (b) ,the boats were never overlapped. So (b) is irrelevant
Room
The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.
And most certainly an approaching Port–tack boat has and in this case had room both to port and to starboard and also the option to slow down two to three boat length before in a moderate breeze. He simply did not have the willingness to do either but chose to Hail. If he had born-away to Keep Clear then the Starboard-Tack Boat would have been obliged not to alter course.
John,
Would you like to have another stab at this. One has little wonder that there is so much needless aggression, not that we don't enjoy watching it and then taking it apart afterwards
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A beautiful day yesterday and we , that is the wife and I, went down to the pond to watch the IOM boats sail. They are always exciting. Thanks to you fellows we are getting a good idea of what is taking place.
But A new one …
Hold your Course
Two boats were converging on a beat, One Starboard-Tack and the other Port-Tack.
When the two were about 2 boat lengths apart the Port-tack Boat called ‘ Hold your Course ‘ . Clearly the Port-tack Boat was intent upon passing across the Bow of the Starboard-Tack Boat and took NO avoiding action.
So we read the rule which we believed applicable Rule 16
Rule 16.2
……., when after the starting signal a port-tack boat is keeping clear by sailing to PASS ASTERN of a starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear
So this is clear to us that the Starboard Tack boat has no obligation to the Port Tack Boat in terms of Rule 16.2
Rule 16.1
When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.
The wind freshened a little speeding-up the boats and Lifted the Starboard Tack Boat a few degrees ( maybe 3 ..5) and conversely heading the Port Tack Boat. This took place with at least 1 boat length between them but the Port Tack boat still took NO AVOIDING action. CONTACT
So we are confused
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I went to our local pond today to watch the sailing and saw a Wedge IOM
It is lovely
I was told it cost
Hull complete £680 including delivery to UK
Winch £180
Sails/ Rig £300 A & B
Is this correct - about £1200 New boat on the water ?
Is it any good
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Again John thank you,
The point of the discussion is just that, a discussion , not a regurgitation of a rule for that is pointless.
It would be nice to hear from others and their opinion.
The one obvious failing that is that evidence will be conflicting since:-
1/ Observer/s rarely see the entire incident and
2/ Observers will seldom take the time to note the positions as the situation develops.
3/ Each skippers view will be that the other was in the wrong.
That is if there even is an observer or if he/ she wanted to see it.
We went to watch an event on Sunday
This time the course was set for Starboard Rounding.
Now that was interesting to say the least.
In summary
If two or more boats were approaching on Port Tack then they totally ignored the Starboard Tack approaching boat .
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John,
Thank you for your response.
Close to the mark is a little subjective don't you think
Is Close - within 1 boat length or 4 boat lengths between the Mark and the boat ?
Before the OUTSIDE and now LEEWARD BOAT can force the boat to windward or exercise his rights / status of ROW boat.
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Me and the wife have been to watch a couple of Radio Sailing events this year at a pond nearby and really enjoy watching and having a picnic on the bank. I am an ardent reader of John Ball posts regarding Rules.
But perhaps we seem to have missed something
Going around a mark the INSIDE boat has right of way to the extent of rounding a mark and the OUTSIDE boat must give it MARK ROOM. Yes?
And subtly different KEEP CLEAR to the extent of rounding the Mark since the inside boat has RIGHT of WAY although 18 makes NO mention of KEEPING CLEAR. The issue of WINDWARD And LEEWARD is not relevant.
Is it correct to assume that the INSIDE boat must sail a course around the mark and not suddenly sail away from it, needlessly turn outward, this not being PROPER COURSE ?.
And only has RIGHT OF WAY to the extent of MARK ROOM
When looking at the definitions in the Rule Book and the rule ( 18) the OUTSIDE boat must KEEP CLEAR of the INSIDE boat not the converse.
Does the OUTSIDE boat determine how much space the INSIDE boat needs to round that mark. ?
So why does one hear the call ‘ How much room do you need ? ‘
Is it because the inside boat has ROOM to round the mark and the OUTSIDE BOAT ( now Leeward Boat) is NOT required to KEEP CLEAR in terms of Rule 11 ?
But who determines HOW tight a boat can turn … they are all differently set up and speed may influence this.
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The fellows you are thinking of , Gibson, Stollery, Walsh, Harris, Roberts, Elliott are in a different class. If they were each given a log and an axe the day before the event and told to fashion out a hull ready for the next day’s competition they would still be ahead on most of us at the first mark.
We often swap boats for the day at our little club and guess what…
The finishing order is much the same…try it at your club
65% Skipper
25% Sails
10% Boat hull
Within limits
Seems like you have too much mast rake or the picture is deceiving
Ericka
.=.
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I think you will have to take that up with Dave. I know he enjoyed sailing at your pond three or four times a year for many years but given the reception he received the last time he will need an invitation from your Commodore to come back ever.
Back to Rules
As I said :- in many instances short courses give rise to tactics that are a little short of desperate. There is very little difference in the boat speeds of IOM boats, it is course length that produces tactics that separates fleets. The greater the number of marks between the top and bottom marks, the greater the tendency is to make it a procession.
Yes - well that is my observation
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Mmmmmm
Let us review your IOM placing over the past 6 club events
8.08.17 - Let’s See
11.0717 - Absent
13.06.17 - 2/10
09.05.17 - 6/12
11.04.17 - 7/14
14.03.17 - 5/13
Never entered a District Events !
Your club is sailing sprint races almost like speedway. This is not ideal. The Courses set actually constrain the fleet into a precession. Suggest to your Race officer that fewer Marks are used . Windward with short shredder and leeward with short shredder marks and the incidents will halve.
Your results look consistent and no where near the back. The boats ahead of you are helmed good skippers .... Learn from them. study their approach. particularly John
8.08.17 - Let’s See
11.0717 - 1/12
13.06.17 - Absent
09.05.17 - 1/12
11.04.17 - 1/14
14.03.17 - 2/13
Don't worry about how others sail, sail your own race . Visit Rome - but don't become a Roman
Yes!
Go sailing at Manor Park of Sunday coming and get some long course practice.
Mmmmm??
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Dear David,
I took the time to read almost every word of your post this morning and you indeed raise some interesting points. I and I am sure many others would love to know a little more, for example:-
• How many IOM boats do you own / have you owned?
• How many of them did you build?
• Tell use a little about IOM racing at your local club?
Post a picture or two of the innovative ideas you have implemented. This toothed belt for example
Erick
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John,
How about making a summary for this
Boat A on Starboard – tacked to Port and to weather of Boat B
Boat B acquires ROW due to the action of Boat A
Therefore
Boat A must keep clear of Boat B – when tacking - given Boat B passed astern of Boat A
Rule 16.2
Rule 13
Assumed that Boat A did not infringe upon Rule 16.2
Boat A must keep clear – once becoming Weather Boat
Rule 15 – Not applicable to Boat B
Rule 11– Applicable to Boat A
Boat B need not give room to Boat A and can luff at any time
Rule 15 – Not applicable to Boat B
Rule 11– Applicable to Boat A
Boat B could have tacked to starboard immediately Boat A looked like tacking?
Do I have it correct?
Yes???
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If you e-mail me directly @
erick.brunswick@gmail.com
I may be able to send you a pdf
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Derek 160
I believe:-
I stated that we should NOT look forward or welcome an era of Radio Control Boat insurance. I should have added " Encourage or facilitate"
We should NOT look forward to , welcome, encourage or facilitate an era of Radio Control Boat insurance.
The MYA, as controlling body, should however indemnify themselves and competitors against civil claims by the inclusion of a simple indemnity statement into the SSI , Notice of race and the entry system. Similarly EVERY CLUB SHOULD make this a condition of membership.
Some may believe that the DESISION to RACE clause in the RRS will do this for them but ...this is far from sufficient and would not be deemed as an indemnity.
Imagine if British Touring Cars were comprehensively insured... the chaos of stopping the race and collecting statements, measuring skid marks every time there was a shunt. Claims for whiplash and so on.
Personally, I would not knowingly compete in the same race as an Insured Boat and insured boats should be required to fly the Q flag ion their starboard shroud.
I would NOT believe any Insurance Company would provide collision damage insurance to Radio Controlled toy boats whilst racing...
Be careful of what you wish for... Derek it takes but one
Do you remember Christmas ... I do ... that is James the Boom and the battle of Potternek.
nmn
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One believes that:- 113 read
You can insure anything for any risk. What one has to consider is where the risk actually lies and the degree of that risk.
The incidence of total loss of Radio Controlled Yacht is so low as to pose a non- existent risk. The greater risk is partial damage i.e. damage to sails, winch and rigs.
An INSURER will not however be able to determine this and deem the risk of a claim to be high and load the premium accordingly.
One of the difficulties an INSURER has is that the majority of our yachts are not produced by RECOGNISABLE Manufacturers and as such have no definable / verifiable replacement value.
We should not welcome an era of All Risk Insurance in RADIO CONTROLLED SAILING particularly whilst RACING because the INSURER will certainly take CIVIL ACTION against any COMPETITOR involved in an incident resulting in a CLAIM by the INSURED in order to recover their loss, both direct and consequential.
This will inevitably result in Protest Committees, Clubs, Race Officers and the MYA becoming dragged into CIVIL DAMAGE ACTIONS in order to determine liability.
The MYA and Clubs seemingly are oblivious to the changing circumstances i.e. the cost of Radio Yachts souring beyond all proportion in some classes and have not amended the SSI , Notice of Race, Race Entry and other documents in such a way that would indemnify THEMSELVES and COMPETITORS against CIVIL ACTION in the event of loss or damage to craft whilst competing in an event.
The value of the boat being transported is in some cases greater that the value of the car transporting it.
Just this weekend I was told of an incident where the crew of the rescue boat damaged a boat it was rescuing by alleged careless handling causing the loss of a complete rig valued at £250.
Something simple devoid of medieval Latin phrases like Mutatis Mutandis:-
In entering this event the COMPETITOR understands and accepts that his craft may suffer damage or loss and competes at his/ her own risk and forgoes any rights at law to ….
This type of clause is standard in all forms of Motor Racing
It could be held that the risk of damage to a Full Size Yacht is far less than a Radio Controlled Yacht simply because the skipper of a Radio Controlled Yacht is not on-board the craft and consequently has no risk of PERSONAL INJURY moderating his decisions in term of course, speed and sailing conditions.
An example of this was a West Kirby IOM Ranking Event – the Full Size boats did not put to water because of the conditions but the Radio Yachts did.
Consider the insurance cover carefully and identify the circumstances under which you might want to claim before buying cover you might not be able to effective claim against. The word RACING will scare any INSURER but do not forget to state this in your description of usage.
Close Racing has its inherent risks which you must fully accept irrespective of who is on port tack, has water at the mark or is leeward.
One believes.
...
Hold your Course
in Racing Rules
Posted
Hold your course Laurie - Mike is taking avoiding action
Notice the angle of the rudder ( not in the water )
OH Protest 69 !!! - You changed course !!